193: ‘Making Ideas Impactful’, with Darren Brooker

193: ‘Making Ideas Impactful’, with Darren Brooker

Evan Troxel: Welcome to the TRXL Podcast. I'm Evan Troxel, and in this episode I welcome Darren Brooker. Darren is a longtime creative strategist, most recently with a long stint at Autodesk, working at the intersection of storytelling, design and technology. He's also a trained architect, a seasoned leader in narrative strategy, and has a background in 3D visual effects and production. His work has earned industry recognition, including BAFTA and Oscar nominations, and he's known for his ability to unify complex ideas into compelling strategic narratives. In this episode, we explore how storytelling and visual communication when used together can transform the way ideas are received and acted upon.

We talk about how architectural concepts are often misunderstood, not because they're bad ideas, but because they're not communicated in a way that sticks. Darren explains why the key to influence lies in empathy, emotional engagement. And a deep understanding of how humans process information, whether it's helping decision makers see the future winning buy-in for a concept, or navigating the messy early stages of design, he shares lessons drawn from architecture, advertising, companies like Pixar, and more. A key Theme from this conversation is how storytelling, becomes the most powerful tool we have for making ideas resonate. Whether it's a design proposal, a new process, or a pitch for innovation, we dive into how narrative combined with visual communication is what turns ideas into action inside AEC firms.

It's not just about showing the work. It's about making people feel it, understand it, and remember it. As usual, there's an extensive amount of additional information in the show notes. So be sure to check those out. You can find them directly in your podcast app if you're a paid member of TRXL+, and if you're a free member, you can find them at the website, which is TRXL.co.

Lastly, you can really help the podcast by sharing the episodes with your colleagues and by commenting and sharing my LinkedIn posts. It really boosts the algorithm when you do that and you can leave a comment over on YouTube and engage with me and the other listeners. So now without further ado, I bring you my conversation with Darren Brooker.

Darren, we met on a rooftop in beautiful downtown San Diego last fall. I actually went away from our conversation, like I have to have that guy on the podcast.

So if that, if that really sets the scene here, it just, it's a little bit of putting something out there for the audience to, to really get into this. But Darren, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you come on the show.

Darren Brooker: Thank you so much, Evan, for having me. I feel, uh, having listened to, uh, to quite a few now, um, I feel like I'm in esteemed company,

Evan Troxel: Nice.

Darren Brooker: so many of your visitors. I, uh, or your guests rather, I have, uh, architecture lurking deep in my past.

Evan Troxel: Well, let, let's talk about that. I would love to hear kind of that origin story, and I mean this, this culminates in a brand new thing that you're doing with, uh, quite a long stint at Autodesk along the way. But tell us what, what is the, the architecture that's rooted deeply in your past?

Darren Brooker: Well, the, uh, the phrase that got badly about at Autodesk was, uh, recovering architect. There was a little club of us. There were quite a few of us, but my, uh, I never was an architect. I was more of a recovering a architecture student. Um, and

Evan Troxel: that was enough. Was it not?

Darren Brooker: my, yeah, it, it was more than enough, honestly. Yeah. My adventures in architecture began and ended, you know, in a, in the blink of an eye, in a, in a single degree where, uh, the job board went from completely full, uh, at interview stage.

By the time I left mid recession, there were two jobs on that job board that 30 of us were fighting over, and I certainly wasn't the best architect or even, uh, probably in the top half of that group, if I'm honest. It's one thing I found out about myself at architecture school. I probably had a, uh, a lucky escape.

Evan Troxel: It's, it's kind of painful to figure that out at the end, right? It's like you go through that whole thing and then like, like my wife, she has a, a graduate degree in architecture and has this. This feeling like she has to use it, though it's really against the grain of, of who she is. And, and I, you know, I know a lot of people who go through that and then it's like, well, I paid for this and now I need to use it.

And it, I didn't find something. I can't justify going out and doing something else. Maybe that's less and less of a thing nowadays than it used to be. But I feel like that was, must have been difficult to kind of figure that out and, and launch into a recession. And then it's like, okay, now what?

Darren Brooker: Uh, I don't know. Well, for one, I was in the uk so the, the, the paid element of the degree wasn't nearly as much as your, uh, your wife would've paid for sure. I never felt under any pressure to use it. There was no option for that at the time in the recession. And actually, you know, with hindsight and looking back, I certainly had my, uh, my crises.

But looking back, I feel like it's the, uh. The unexpected right hand turns in my career that have kind of all added up to something

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Darren Brooker: and they just can't be planned for it. And I know a lot of people have that kind of experience.

Evan Troxel: I, I'm curious because I hear this a lot too, and I, I feel like this too. It's like I, I still really valued the education that I got, no matter what I maybe would've ended up doing, even though I did end up practicing architecture, but you hear that a lot as well. Right. Recovering architect also, I wouldn't trade the educational portion of it for anything else.

I would I, that, that was really an incredible experience for a lot of people.

Darren Brooker: Oh, I totally agree. Um, I wouldn't change what I studied at all. It taught me so much around, you know, systems thinking and human centered design and, um, you know, being able to stand up in front of a room and take the fiercest critique ever. Um, I do remember my first ever, uh, crit in year one. I stood in front of a, uh.

A fierce Scottish head of year tutor, um, having presented my, my project proposal and he proudly announced to the entire class, Darren Symmetry equals the box, equals the coffin, equals death. And just, and then just stop speaking. That just left that dangling and me stood there. Um, so, you know, since that day I'm, uh, I'm able to take any amount of critique and feedback.

In fact, I've learned to love it.

Evan Troxel: Is, is that also when you learned kind of the power of the pause of, of dead air at the end of a statement like that?

Darren Brooker: Abs Oh, absolutely, yes. The power of silence.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Darren Brooker: My, yeah, no, my.

Evan Troxel: uncomfortable with that and it, and it's incredible to actually use it to your, and, and just be totally okay with it's doing psychologically to the others in the room while it's happening.

Darren Brooker: Well, my wife used to be a, a buyer for a big, uh, retail company, and she went on a, um, uh, a course in, um, I guess you could call it, persuasion. What was it? Negotiation Course in negotiation. And, um, she was taught that the key to negotiation is silence, putting other people into that uncomfortable zone.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. And, and being kind of in communications and storytelling and, and strategy and media. The, the, the things that you specialize in. There, I'm sure you run up against people who absolutely can't stand to have that silence and they just have to fill every moment, and I, I am just curious what you think about that as far, you know, I, I didn't expect to maybe go this direction with a conversation, but I think it's such an interesting thing to, to kind of reflect on right now.

Darren Brooker: Well, I can reflect, reflect and, uh, bring us back on track actually. 'cause um, you know, the, the people that I work with, uh, especially the ones with an Autodesk, you know, I've, I've written keynotes for every executive position in the entire C-suite. Uh, probably like dozens of executives at this time. And there are just, um, like this whole, like you would with any group of a couple of dozen people, right?

This whole spectrum of personalities. Um, and you know, I think what is remarkable for. People in such positions of influence and power is that there's a, there's a fair skew towards introversion. Um, you, you don't necessarily get those people trying to just fill airtime. Um, some you do, absolutely. But, um, a lot of people, I, a lot of people I deal with, um, are very measured with their, with their contribution

Evan Troxel: That's interesting. So after you graduated into a recession, where did that lead you?

Darren Brooker: well, um, on a, you know, a little journey of fun and frivolity for a while after an architecture degree, and then a bit of a, uh, you know, first of many crises. Um, and I applied for a whole bunch of design, architecture, technology related jobs. Um, before landing one as a journalist, alongside a couple of people who you'll probably know, uh, Martin Day and later down the line, Greg Co.

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Darren Brooker: Um, that was, that was my first job in journalism and I stayed in journalism for, um, probably five, six years. Um, and the one thing that happened during that five, six years was that technology caught up, uh, with my ability and more importantly, my ambition as a child. I never really wanted to be an architect.

Actually. I went to, uh, my career as advisor at school wanting to be an animator. Um, and, you know, probably the worst careers advice I'd ever got was to go study architecture instead. Um, but I, you know, like my, my fine art wasn't. Good enough. And it, it wasn't good enough. My skill with a, with a pencil wasn't good enough.

But it turned out that, you know, one failed degree later and six years in technology journalism and suddenly you didn't need to draw anymore and you, you could use a computer. And guess what? I fell in love with as a technology journalist, tech technology. So like suddenly, um, you know, this right hand turn I'd taken suddenly added up to something and opened up this whole new path in front of me.

So I, I went and put myself through a master's in, uh, in visual effects and became a visual effects artist. Uh, turned out I wasn't very good at that either. I what a bafta. I was nominated for an Oscar, uh, but all part as a team, and I don't think I was the strongest person on that team either. Again, probably not even the top half.

Of that team, but I got those awards nonetheless, and I, uh, I'll gladly take them

Evan Troxel: Sure.

Darren Brooker: that five year, that five years was brutal visual effect is a, uh, is a really brutal industry of long hours,

Evan Troxel: I was

Darren Brooker: terrible pay.

Evan Troxel: architecture. It's totally like a parallel path in that regard.

Darren Brooker: I'm glad you made that comparison. Not me having worked with, uh, with architects recently building this space that we're in. Um, I don't have any yearning to return to the profession that I, that I left behind. No, nor no visual effects.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, I, I had a stint in visual effects as well after I had graduated and, and kind of l left. The firm that I was working for went off on my own and was, I actually have some IMDB credits for like Discovery Channel and History Channel for that were running. And yeah, I used to do a lot of animation work myself, 3D animation.

Darren Brooker: we should talk about that. I've got discovery channel and history channel credits as well. I just, I didn't,

Evan Troxel: notes.

Darren Brooker: Yes. Yeah. Well, I need to fire up my M-I-M-D-B profile again. Yeah. But then after, um, after animation burnt me out and visual effects burnt me out, I kind of just look back and wondered what to do and noticed that this thread that had run through, uh, through architecture school, through, um, doing my masters in visual effects to my career in visual effects and the one constant through all of that was Autodesk.

So

Evan Troxel: Interesting.

Darren Brooker: uh, that was where I went knocking next.

Evan Troxel: That's interesting. Yeah, I mean, I think as architects, when we think of Autodesk, I don't necessarily think we'd necessarily think of the other verticals that Autodesk is involved with. And that's just a couple, right? There are, there are quite a few more

Darren Brooker: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: but the visual effects industry with even before Autodesk purchased Maya, right from, was it Alias?

I can't even remember at this point,

Darren Brooker: Alias. Yes. Yes.

Evan Troxel: Um, but there were many other, there was, there was many other software applications that kind of have come and gone in that ecosystem. Right. 3D studios kind of been there for a very, very long time and, and still of at the top of the heap, I think.

But, yeah. It's

Darren Brooker: Soft, soft.

Evan Troxel: thread. Oh, that's right.

Darren Brooker: So Soft Diage is the one that still will annoy visual effects artists at a certain age. Why? Um, and this is a personal opinion, I should stress at this point, why Autodesk ever needed not one, not two, but three applications that that did ostensibly the same thing in three DS Max Soft Diage and Maya.

Evan Troxel: Yep.

Darren Brooker: I, I do not know, but um, yeah, soft Diage was a beautiful procedural tool that a lot of people were, uh, were very sad to see. Go.

Evan Troxel: It has so much more mystique. When when you, when you read it, you think it's soft image, right? And then it, somebody says very pretentiously soft homage, you're like, oh, okay. It's in a, it's in another tier than what I was thinking.

Darren Brooker: Well, a lot of, a lot of the roots of those visual effects packages, like, um, like Maya from Toronto, three DS Max, the Discrete Logic acquisition, they were a, a Montreal based company. So there's a lot of, um, French Canadian influence, so it is important to pronounce it with Dax

Evan Troxel: Yeah. And there was also like, uh, compositing applications, wasn't it? Combustion back in the day.

Darren Brooker: Combustion Toxic, and then, yeah, flame Flint Inferno. Oh, I don't, I dunno how many,

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Darren Brooker: many, how many compositing applications they needed.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. And they all had to do with, with igniting things on, on fire in some way or another. Uh, interesting. So were you writing about these apps when you were working?

Was it, were you at AEC magazine with Martin and Greg, or was it even previous to that?

Darren Brooker: I was at CAD desk with Martin and then AEC with Martin and Greg. Yes, and that's exactly what I was writing about. Um, I was writing about, uh, the same things that you talk about here,

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

Darren Brooker: just, and it was about that time of the, uh, of the AutoCAD release, 14 debacle. So I remember sitting across from a very intense and busy Martin Day who was, uh, you know, busy on his, uh, righteous crusade.

Uh, I don a rightful crusade, honestly, um, trying to light a fire under Autodesk in terms of the, uh, the performance gap between one, uh, one version 13 and the next. 14, or was it 12 and 13? I can't remember my memory. My memory fades. But yeah, that was, that was my focus as a jour, as a journalist. And of course as a journalist, I got access to lots of, um, free software, which was kind of like my route into animation was, um, was kind of co-funded by the industry, not that they knew they were doing it.

Evan Troxel: It reminds me of the days in architecture school when everybody had of software, and this was even before the days when software was literally given away to students, or maybe it kind of coincided with it, but there was a lot of cracked software back in those days that, I mean, every student had Photoshop and Illustrator and, and Freehand and all of these various Appli, quark Express and PageMaker and all.

It's like, how did you get that? Oh, here, let me, let me give you a copy and I mean it, this is how everybody and, and the, the, the software companies didn't really care when it comes to the students, right? Because they also knew that students were getting to use these applications and getting experience with them, and that when they're gonna go on and graduate and get a quote unquote real job.

I mean, how much more likely were they to actually purchase the license of that software at that point? It was highly likely, but it was interesting just to think about the tools in our toolbox and the thousands and thousands of dollars in tools. we used to just trade on on thumb drives and zip drives and things like that back in the day.

Darren Brooker: I think I was a little bit ahead of you. The one thing I do remember in terms of the defining aspect of digital tools at my architecture school was that there was this little kind of CAD studio that you, uh, I, I, I think it took me a few weeks to discover,

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Darren Brooker: And it felt like this secret little club.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Darren Brooker: Um, and none of the very few students, um. Used it. Very few of the lecturers liked it or respected it. And I remember doing crazy things to disguise the facts that I was UI was using digital tools like, um, jamming kind of kitchen roll around a plotter pen so that the pen would, would wobble in place and give you these wobbly lines.

And the craziest thing was photographing the screen of, uh, of a PC with a 35 mil film camera

Evan Troxel: Uh

Darren Brooker: and smearing the screen with like a petroleum jelly to try and take away some of the, uh, the kind of pixelated aspect and getting these kind of more artistic shots of what was, you know, a 3D design sitting there in 3D space displayed on a monitor.

Evan Troxel: that's incredible. And I mean, yeah. CRT monitors with curved surfaces to, I mean, yeah. We're, we're going back. We're going back.

Darren Brooker: Fun times. Fun times.

Evan Troxel: So, so where did, did you go after your journalism stint?

Darren Brooker: Um, well after the, after the journalism. Journalism was the, um, visual effects.

Evan Troxel: Okay.

Darren Brooker: and then into Autodesk. And if I kind of fast forward is a little, I had a, a decade in Autodesk within the m and e world. 'cause I came in as a, as a, uh, visual effects artist thinking that everybody in Autodesk would know our tools inside out.

Turns out very few, very few do. Um, so I was, I I I felt like a bit of, um. Um, kind of a, a, a, I was a blessed person to have that, that deep knowledge. So I, I worked in, uh, customer support and customer success, and then in kind of what we call technical sales. So the, the, the person who goes out with the sales people to the customers and can kind of translate between the, the talk of a salesperson, the need of a customer, and sit in the middle with the, with the laptop open, trying to, uh, to find some, some middle ground and some reality.

Uh, and I did that for best part of a decade. And then I applied for a job, and this was a total reach. I applied for a job as our CEO's speech writer. That was how it was advertised. And, um, not thinking that I would get it being based in the UK working in a ME. Technical sales team. It took, um, it took someone, the, the hiring manager, his name was John Pittman.

Um, to see that all those little pieces, you know, the architecture degree, the technology, journalism, the visual effects, that customer experience that I had, like all of that could add up to something. Um, that was a, that was what a CEO needed in his speeches.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Darren Brooker: it turned out, um, to be like life changing.

Honestly, John changed my life. I think I, looking back on it now, I. I kind of, you know, I recontextualize it that I, the, the one constant in my life has not been Autodesk. Actually, it's been story from the, you know, the, the films that I made to the books that I've written, to the speeches and the speculative fiction that I write today.

Um, just story through different forms. Some, some, some digital, um, some very analog.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

This is why I, going away from our. Happy hour on the rooftop thinking like, I've gotta talk more with Darren because like, there's so many parallels here in my experience in and around the industry, our education kind of this, this tech thread that, that weaves through all of this. But something that that really became apparent to me in a role that I had and I still have is communication.

Like, it, it's

Darren Brooker: Yep.

Evan Troxel: important. I, I actually felt like, okay, yes, I'm an architect. Yes, I'm a technologist. Yes, I'm a father. Yes, I'm, I am outdoors and thess. But through all of these things, being able to communicate and, and like you said, you would go out on the technical sales and you would basically translate between these two very different vocabularies of software sales and, and users.

And I've found myself in that position so many times where it's, it, maybe it's between the users of. The practice of architecture, like the software technology and the practice of architecture and the C-suite, again, there's like a big disconnect there. And then throw it into that too, right? It's like you're, and I basically my stripes by working with clients, doing design work.

And so going through architecture school, then becoming an architect, working with lots and lots and lots of giant clients who, you've got 30 people in a room and you've gotta distill everything down that they talk about into a

Darren Brooker: Yep.

Evan Troxel: And so it's like this idea of synthesis, but also getting everybody on the same page and, and getting consensus and moving forward and, and getting decisions. Documented so that we could move forward. And that is very much a communications thing. And, and so I'm just curious from your point of view, like I was using the word communicator, communications,

Darren Brooker: Yep.

Evan Troxel: and then you're using the word storytelling, and I'm curious if you really, do you see a difference between those?

I mean, I, I could imagine like the approach might be different and, and there might be a better way for me to talk about the kinds of things that I'm doing, but I think a lot of it is rooted in story than just communication. Sounds a little more generic.

Darren Brooker: Well, you know, isn't everything we tell ourselves a story? That's one answer to that question. But I think, um, yeah, there's massive parallels. Honestly, I think, um, I. What do I think? No, I think I've met the hiring manager. John always talks about tool sets, skill sets and mindsets, this kind of head, heart, hands thing.

And I feel like I shifted from tool sets and my, my, the really successful phase in my career has been around skill sets and mindsets. And that mindset part is exactly what you talk about, whether it's storytelling or communication. And I think here's where there are the parallels between storytelling and, um, your world of digital practices.

That they're both kind of these core practices that overlap so much of a company. They're both really central and really some of the key skills are exactly what you outlined. The kind of the advocating for change and the building understanding. Um. And it's all about people. And that, that situation that you described as taking 30 people's input and distilling it down to a building, um, yeah, I would often have 30 people's input to distill down into a messaging document, uh, a draft script, a storyboard, um, and, and yeah, bringing people along, not just kind of starting at the end,

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Darren Brooker: bringing people along because, uh, you know, that's key to key element of persuasion, I think.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, I mean it to me, the idea of, of story and kind of weaving a story arc. So I've been a big student of like apple's keynotes over the years. You know, back when Steve

Darren Brooker: Yes.

Evan Troxel: them on stage and,

Darren Brooker: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: would turn on the Steve Jobs, you know, kind of reality distortion field they used to call it.

Right? And where, where the audience would basically suspend, suspend belief and, and trust and, and because the story was usually so compelling and simple, that was a key element. But it

Darren Brooker: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: I, I became acutely aware of how difficult it was like in architectural design. To distill something down to its essence and really communicate that essence to people.

And I guess those were kind of the original training grounds for, for this was was presenting your project in a crit Right. At,

Darren Brooker: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: school, but, but over the years, really becoming a student of. How to tell the story of what you want to say and get everybody going, nodding their heads and, and, and engaging with it and going along with it me is it is an art and it is a skill that you can develop.

And I, and I I wanted to have you on the show because I feel like, you know, a lot of you mentioned it a minute ago, like a lot of people in these industries are introverted by nature, and

Darren Brooker: Yeah,

Evan Troxel: not like they just want to talk all the time. They don't want to, they actually don't want to talk all the time.

It's completely draining. But when they do, the words really need to matter. And if it isn't a skill you're actively developing, then you actually aren't going to make the impact or land the thing that you're trying to land. And so this is something that I, I really want to help people out with because I, it is so, so critical to be able to do that.

And I'm just curious, like, I just threw a bunch of stuff out there, but I'm, I'm curious what this is kind of stirring up in you.

Darren Brooker: well, you gave me a few things there. You gave me, uh, you know, the, we're onto the, of, of the tool set skillset, mindset thing. There's the skillset piece and learning and, uh, and those, you know, those, those skills of story and how, uh, other people might. Might learn them. I think there's the keynote piece and Apple starting this thing, all that, all that time ago that is now so big.

Um, you know, the power, the power of keynotes these days, you know, you look across the technology spectrum from your apple to Microsoft, Nvidia meta, whoever, like the power of product launch now has become such a big thing that, like Taco Bell, um, uh, are launching products with keynotes, or at least they did last year.

It's, it's got to a point where, um, I think, what do I think, I think, um, making keynotes has become, like making movies in that, um, you know, expectations are sky high and, uh, the experience is really changing. Budgets are still completely flat, exactly like Hollywood. Um, but, um, I think. I think going back to the, um, the learning piece, um, there's, there's a lot to be learned from, um, from keynotes.

And actually I learned something from, uh, apple this year, uh, or late last year rather. Um, and there was a, there was a keynote where they were talking about Apple intelligence and we were wrestling with AI at Autodesk. I was wrestling with AI and how we, how we talked about it. And, you know, suddenly there was this AI arms race and all, all any technology company wanted to talk about was ai.

And we were, um, you know, in my strategy role, I was talking to all of these different groups and we kind of assembled this big document of where AI was prevalent in, or, or, or present even across our big portfolio. And what we found that it was all these kind of. Small use cases. Um, and I, I, and I think that's still very true of a lot of the AI landscape.

Um, it's kind of quite, um, siloed or niche little use cases. Um, and rather than try and talk about AI in this kind of big visionary way, which is, you know, generally what you do when you try and craft a story, you generally try and make somebody's idea as as big as possible. Actually watching Apple Intelligence being launched and the way that they were talking about, um, apple Intelligence being these, you know, these simple, small, practical, delightful things that just, you know, just help people do what they want to do.

And it was a real aha moment actually, and we kind of, um. We took a bit of a pivot from trying to find this kind of big overarching, um, way to talk about AI at Autodesk, to talking just in, in very practical terms about, you know, drawing automation infusion or sketch constraints where we were talking about these kind of small, um, fairly, fairly niche applications, but in ways that were just, you know, very true to what users would want, just saving them, saving them time, reducing guesswork, grunt work.

But, um, making a story kind of small rather than big and it, it really, it really resonated. So there's a ton of different ways to tell stories and keynotes can teach us a lot about them, particularly I think in the technology landscape. But, um, if I can plug my new venture very briefly, um, on the learning front, actually today, today I launched.

Um, a workshop. Uh, my new venture is called Great Big Stories. And, um, I launched, uh, a storytelling workshop called Storytelling Sprint, which is this kind of cyclical agile four stage workshop, um, that, you know, goes through these four phases and is designed to be repeated, um, and designed to be repeatable actually.

So, you know, the, the aim of it is to help people make these, make these small ideas into big stories,

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

Darren Brooker: and to make the entire process repeatable so that they can put story to work after they've left the workshop.

Evan Troxel: So you are teaching people how to basically come up with this, use this framework to get their ideas out there and, and so in that regard, it's repeatable because it doesn't apply to any one specific. Outcome or use case, I should say the outcome is, is similar maybe across these, but the use case isn't specific.

Darren Brooker: Yeah, it's a very kind of generalized approach and draws on, um, you know, a lot of kind of human centered design techniques. Um, a lot of these things, a lot of stickies. I love them. But um, yeah, it just take.

Evan Troxel: are. How, how many of these are on your desk? many

Darren Brooker: Oh, I'm ru, I'm running, I'm running out. I think these are all still property of Autodesk. Technically, I'm gonna have to stop buying my own, buying my own soon.

Yeah. But what, where, if we go back to that tool sets, mindset. Skillset, right? So the tool sets was kind of phase one of my career

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Darren Brooker: has been really big. But, um, something going, uh, I worked really hard when I was, um, when I was in that storytelling role was to, um, was to, was to teach people the art of storytelling and the methods of storytelling.

And I ran a workshop within Autodesk, um, that, that hit between five and 600 different people within the company. And people loved it. It kind of, it, it, it settled to desks of light for, for a little while, for a little while. And then Covid hit and it didn't. Uh, all of a sudden. But yeah, I loved delivering those workshops and really kind of sharing some of my secret source.

And I think really it was the methods that I use that I enjoyed sharing the most, because I think that's what came from things like architecture school.

Evan Troxel: Hmm. Are you willing to share a little hint of, of that, those kinds of methods? Because I think to, to me, what's interesting about this is, yeah, I'll take a workshop if it's included at my company for free. And I think a lot

Darren Brooker: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: firms are investing in their staff, but there's also people out there who aren't getting that investment, and they might have to find it on their own, especially if they want to develop skills and take these kinds of things to the next level.

So willing to share a, a couple hints

Darren Brooker: Of course.

Evan Troxel: that you're talking about?

Darren Brooker: Yeah, of course, of course. So the, the workshop goes through four phases and it's, I'm probably gonna get this wrong now. It's discover, define design. Refine, right? So discovery is all about, um, asking yourself questions about who your audience are, what they care about, um, and what, what you want, what you want them to leave with.

Um, so it's all about looking at your audience. Um, and then the second part define is, okay, so now you know what your audience care about. What do you care about? What's, what's your idea? What do you want to communicate? And really just kind of breaking the idea apart into its component parts and looking at all the different pieces and how they could potentially fit together in support of, you know, what, what you want your audience to, to hear.

Um, and then the second of the workshop goes into design, which is really moves into kind of how you express the idea. You've broken it into pieces, how you kind of put it back together again. At this point, you really are juggling lots of post-its around and, um. And then refine is the final section where you, you, you put it into your tone, your voice, your style, so you're comfortable with it.

And then you, you go back and you look at the audience part again and your idea again and just, you know, progressively refine this thing. But some of the methods within, you know, some of them are, are really simple from, you know, like a six by two with, uh, you know, where do you want to move your audience from to things like, think, feel, do, right?

Like what would you want them to think, feel, do. But we use things like, um, abstraction ladders, um, where, you know, you take your idea. And you put it on a sticky and you ask yourself why? And you go up the ladder and you write, um, you know, why is story important? Why, why, why? And you go up the ladder because, as an emotional pull, because it drives human connection.

Um, and then to go down the ladder, you ask yourself, how, how, how so how do we tell the story? And that's where you get into the kind of the, you know, the mechanics and the methods. So, you know, in my, in my jobs in strategy, I've worked in technology strategy, brand strategy, and uh, corporate strategy. We, we would use a lot of these, um, kind of methods within workshops that I would design and facilitate.

And I think a lot of people think that, that the, the stories just get written. There's just, you know, just like architecture, right? You don't just go and you don't just go and design one building. There's a whole bunch of work and, uh, discovery beforehand. And there is so much discovery behind a lot of the stories that end up getting told.

You know, we're a Autodesk are a, a big complex company. Um, you know, just as fragmented as the construction industry, for example. And, you know, there's a lot of groups who, um. You know, have their own ways of talking about things and their own strategies and their own ideas, and you, you need to kind of bring all that together.

So there's a, there's a lot of these techniques and the strategy work I do and I've brought a lot of that to the, uh, to the storytelling workshops.

Evan Troxel: And applying this to, you know, the listener who's listening to this. I think it applies at a personal level and, and many levels beyond that. Right.

Darren Brooker: I.

Evan Troxel: The reason I bring that up is because I think a lot of times when it's like, well, where's my next step in my career? Where's the next step for my team? Those underneath me, know, like there's so many different ways to consider this and how you can implement it to. things along. Right? I, it's not just at a large, you know, keynote by the CEO of Autodesk level that you're talking to here. This, this really applies down all the way to the individual level.

Darren Brooker: Yeah. And we, uh, when I ran the, uh, the workshops with the Autodesk, we, we didn't ask them necessarily to bring, to bring, uh, like a business story. They wanted to tell. 90% of people would, but then the, you know, the one in 10 would bring something about some, some docent work. They were doing, some volunteer work.

They were doing like anything, like a passion project. And we heard so often at the end of the, uh, of the session that not only did it help them bring that story to life, it, it just, it just helped them, um, in their personal lives understand how to, how to, back to your point, to communicate more, um, more, I was gonna say persuasively, that's what some people said, but more, uh, more impactfully.

That's the kind of word.

Evan Troxel: So if we turn the magnifying glass back onto you, now you're launching this new venture, great big stories. And I assume that you applied kind of this framework to, maybe it's just ingrained in you at this point, but know, you have, you have a, you have to launch this, you have to put the message out, and you have to talk about it.

And the way that you talk about it matters and, and the words that you use and the language. And I'm, I'm curious from your perspective, like now applying it to yourself, what that

Darren Brooker: Yep.

Evan Troxel: and, and what, what you've been through the last couple months.

Darren Brooker: That is a very good question, and one I have not really considered actually, or spent time reflecting on what is it like working for myself as a client? Yeah, it, it was, um, it was delightful is my, uh, is my first answer because all my, because all my ideas were good, right? They all met with client's approval

Evan Troxel: right?

Darren Brooker: as a result, as a result, it all came together very quickly.

I mean, it kind of needed to come together very quickly, so we hit the brief.

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

Darren Brooker: Uh, me, myself, and I, and, um, no, it, like, I, I really like, um, moving quickly and just prototyping things and getting them, you know, not aiming for perfection, just getting 80% of the way. And that's something I'm really drawn to with, uh, with AI is a bit of a side note and how quickly AI can get you, um, three quarters of the way somewhere.

But like, I, I really like this idea of being able to iterate quickly. That's kind of what the, what the workshop, um, really, really talks about. But, um, like I have such a, like, just, just a brain that's wired for this kind of work these days. Having done like, particularly the time, uh, leading brand strategy, like you, you could, you could give me, uh.

Give me an idea, and I could give you a brand pretty, pretty quickly. I can't guarantee it would be good. Um, but I'm, I'm, I'm not sure on the ideation front, and in fact that's kind of, um, I guess that's where I really like working is the, is the upfront work. I guess. My, uh, my old boss would've said, I'm a starter, not a finisher.

Like, give me the, uh, the interesting ideation work, not the, uh, you know, the tidy up and the project reports and, uh, yeah, and the archival, that's probably best left to somebody else. But yeah, this was a, this was a very quick prototype and uh, like a very, just got refined very quickly and I'm, I'm really happy with it.

The asset test is, uh, you know, whether, uh, whether the clients come my way.

Evan Troxel: Right, right. Well, you know, my process, I feel like I, I operate a little differently. I, I like to go quickly too, but then I like to just let it simmer for quite a long time and let my subconscious work on it, because

Darren Brooker: Yes.

Evan Troxel: find that, I find inspiration all over the place. And

Darren Brooker: Yep.

Evan Troxel: it's so interesting how it's like, oh, that, that right there was meant for this project.

And I'm so glad that that project has just kind of been simmering because this makes that project so much better and,

Darren Brooker: Yep.

Evan Troxel: kind of a really diverse. Podcasts and YouTube videos and internet and just getting out into nature and talking with people. And it's, it's interesting how you can, you can find little pieces all over the place that apply back to something that was completely disconnected from that. And by just allowing that simmering to happen and that subconscious work of, you know, I, I, I really truly trust my subconscious to be working on things when I'm not actively thinking about them. it's like, oh, okay. All of a sudden, you know, it's like this is design, this is how design has always worked for me.

And I think creativity kind of works like in innovation in other word that comes to mind, right? Where it doesn't happen upon command, it doesn't happen right when you want it, it does for some people, I think, who are well versed in years and years and years of doing creative work because they've always shown up and really built those muscles to do it.

Darren Brooker: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: It's interesting to think about though, how, how what seems like a completely disconnected set of categories and boxes can actually really weave together in really interesting spontaneous moments because you're just paying attention and you kind of have to have a, Rick Rubin talks about it like this, right?

He talks about having, you're, you're tuned in. You, you have to have your antennas out and accepting to tune things in like that. But when they're there, it's, you really, you really have to notice,

Darren Brooker: Yeah, you are, you are, you're, you're totally right. I always loved my, um, commute when I was working in London or the Bay Area, like I, in London, I would run home and I'd run eight miles to work and eight miles home from work and.

Evan Troxel: literally run home. You would not a

Darren Brooker: I, I, I, no, no, no. Not a figure of speech at all. I would, uh, I'd leave my stuff at work.

I'd put my running stuff on, put my headphones on. 'cause they, they weren't called AirPods back then, but I, I put them on and I'd, and I'd run, and all of that noise in my head and all of these different things, these different aspects and all of this input that I'd received from all these people. Yeah, all it needed was just to stare out at a, to skylight and to just let my mind, uh, kind of just count, right.

Counting steps, counting breaths and things would just start to emerge. And the same in San Francisco, you know, catching the, uh, catching the Bay ferry across to Oakland where I lived. I'd just kind of sit and stare and, and sometimes I would, uh, I'd, I'd listen to recordings of myself reading through, uh.

Keynotes in progress

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Darren Brooker: and just that act of kind of separating yourself from the keyboard and the writing and the people and the, um, there's a book actually that you would probably love called, um, I can't remember the author, Japanese author, but the book is called Things I Think about when I think About Running, and it's all about the creative process and that aspect of separation in his case and my case through running.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. How Im, how important, or I guess another way to say it that, now that I'm thinking about it a little bit more is, is like, is that what your practice is? Is it still to go running or do you do, do you, is it found in other ways? Because like for me it's, it's like, and, and I, I think, again, this goes back to Steve Jobs and like how important just going on a walk was for him to

Darren Brooker: Yep. I.

Evan Troxel: out ideas and disconnect from the monitor, the screen, the people, whatever it was, and just get out and just pacing. Really starts to stir up kind of that introspection, that reflectivity that you need inside to kind of work things out.

Darren Brooker: Yeah, it doesn't have to be running. And you know what? I haven't had a commute since Covid, so there hasn't been a lot of, uh, running to and from work. Um, so yeah, just, just getting out and walking and, uh, you know, Autodesk's HQ at One Market in San Francisco is a, a big building. You know, you could do laps of the floors and, um, often like you'd do a lap of the floor and you'd end up having a spontaneous conversation with somebody who.

Um, you know, it could, could come from any part of the business, but because of all those storytelling workshops that I led because of the work I did, you know, there was no shortage of conversations to be had. And often that's what I miss about physical work are those kind of, uh, those chance encounters and those little things that spark something else.

Evan Troxel: Yeah,

Darren Brooker: Um, so yeah, it can be walking, it can be, uh, these little kind of adjacent conversations. It can definitely be running, but I think for me at least, and it sounds a bit like for you, like nothing, nothing beats fresh air on the outside.

Evan Troxel: yeah, It's interesting, right? Because you could be outside, like I could be on a bike ride, it's really important to not have my headphones in and to not be listening to something because then I just completely tune out. It's like, I, I, I can't think about the things that I'm talking about with you right now when there's something else going into my ears.

And what, what's funny is because when I'm, when I'm working, it's the opposite. Like I can't be listening to anything else because it will completely distract me from the work that I'm doing. It will also distract me when I'm outside from doing the thinking that we're talking about doing right now.

Darren Brooker: Yeah, it's like trying to read and listen at the same time. I guess you just, you just can't do, uh, you can't, you can't, you can't do both.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Darren Brooker: um, no, I mean, like, sometimes I need the noise and the distraction and sometimes I, I find I can't listen to things like audio books and podcasts because my mind is so active and I just come back to the podcast, you know, a minute, a minute has gone and I, all I've been thinking about is something from my, you know, professional life.

Personal life, whatever.

Evan Troxel: right?

Darren Brooker: Yeah. You know, a certain age when you have building projects going on and kids who need running around everywhere on a job, like, you know, your thoughts are. Pulled in a hundred different directions. Um, but sometimes, yeah, I need something that has like some rhythm to it. I think the counting be it like swimming, cycling, running, I think something that just kind of takes me out of myself, I guess you enter that kind of flow state right where you are.

Um, you're in the, you're in the zone of doing something, but it's not, it's not a doing something that, um, that requires a huge amount of mental focus,

Evan Troxel: Right.

Darren Brooker: it require, it requires a different kind of focus. Yes.

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Darren Brooker: And that, and that's when things for me can just kind of start to bubble up quite naturally.

And that's what that book was about. The things I think about when I think about running, or at least more of the chapters was

Evan Troxel: Yeah, let's just focus in on the word story and I mean, you've, you chose your, your website as great big stories and, and what you're pursuing here. I mean, talked about kind of the importance of, of telling good stories, but maybe you can give us kind of more, a deeper thesis the idea of why stories matter more than just getting your, your points out.

Darren Brooker: That's a big old question, Evan. I mean, we're wired fortor,

Evan Troxel: into our DNA, like at a, at a

Darren Brooker: I was just about to say the same, I was about, I was about to say exactly the same thing. Like we are wired for story.

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

Darren Brooker: think, um, I think that, that it's such a, such a human thing that we, uh, we just crave it. I think it's, um, you know, I, I had a boss that used to say that story is like fire.

And when he first said it, he said it out of context and I went and I thought about it and I was just thinking that it was something so elemental. Um, like the, the campfire thing, right? And what he actually meant is that stories like fire in terms of the, the heat and light that it can generate, that it can cause, you know, the heat lighting a fire under be under somebody's seat can, can cause them to move to act.

And the, uh, the light is just, you know, it can cause people to see and really shine a light on something and open people's, and open people's mind. I think storytelling is such an incredible mechanism to get ideas across. You know, we could all just present a very compelling PowerPoint deck of slides and data and some people are really, really wired for that.

Um, but it turns out, I think if you, if you weave a story around that data, it becomes so much more compelling.

Evan Troxel: And memorable, right? Like to me, if, if, if I'm gonna listen to somebody basically read their PowerPoint deck and the bullet points and the charts and the, the data that's presented in that, it's like, well, I could just refer back to the deck, right? I don't need, it speaks for itself on, I didn't need somebody necessarily to narrate it. but story is one of those things where it's like, oh, you kind of had to be there, right? To, to hear the deliver when it's done well. Like you had to be there, you had to hear it in person because there's so many more dimensions to storytelling just the audible, just the words that are coming across and going into your ears, right?

It's, it's body language, it's, it, it's emphasis, it's pacing, it's all of these things. And so, I mean, now, now kind of like taking this even into the performance of the storytelling, especially in a keynote, right? And, and really landing that story authentically. What, what's, what's that been like to work with for you?

Because I, I'm sure there's people who are good examples and there are people who are bad examples, but maybe you could just kind of point to the makes a good example versus a bad example. Like what, what's really happening there from your perspective?

Darren Brooker: Well, I think, you know, I've worked with such a spectrum of, um, different presenters, you know, people who, uh, incredibly apprehensive and their mechanism, mechanism is to just prepare really well and, and learn the thing inside out. And people who, you know, who can leave their prep till the last minute because they're such natural, um, they have such natural presence and they, they, they kind of know what they want to say.

They know the material inside out. They're quite frustrating to write for that group. It's like, just tell me so we can both do our jobs rather than just you. Um, but I think, yeah, I think some people, you know, like, and some people can get on stage and tell a joke and some people just really shouldn't, or, you know, just can't.

Um, and I think finding the, your style, your authentic tone, your voice, your style, um, is, is really important. You know, we, uh, we employ kind of performance coaches at things like Autodesk University who will teach people, you know, how to physically connect with the audience, how to use their body language, how to use the stage.

And you see some people just do it really naturally. Some people, even with the coaching, it just feels, uh, feels, feels like you are, you know, I. Fighting against the grain. Um, but it comes, it comes with practice and it comes with, uh, with feedback. And it comes, you know, like a lot of things just with the build, building that, building that muscle memory.

But I think it all comes down to authenticity. Um, and, you know, do you need your chief technology officer to be, you know, there's a, there's an aspect that you want, you want that persona to be a little bit geeky, right? If that person is, is a little bit kind of engineering minded and a bit, a bit geeky and, and maybe a little wooden, like, I don't necessarily see that as a,

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Darren Brooker: as a bad thing.

You don't want that in everybody. But I think the one thing that's changed about. Keynotes through the years I went to, uh, to Google IO just before Covid hit, I think it was probably 2018. Um, and what I saw there was, um, like them using this tremendous calf of characters. You know, if they were talking about, um, you know, the automotive stuff, they would bring out the leader of that business group.

If they were talking about, um, if they were talking about search, email, whatever, they would bring out the best person, um, to the, you know, the, the person with the knowledge. Um, and what it did was give this tremendous diversity to the, uh, to the speaking lineup. Made the whole thing tremendously complex.

'cause you had, you know, like a dozen plus presenters, but at the time lots of companies, Autodesk included, were kind of doing this, uh, one or two person show. Like for years we just had C-E-O-C-T-O. Uh. University, and that was something that, you know, like Carl Bass and Jeff Kovski, um, you know, you can draw a line right back to that.

Um, but I, I really like the idea of using a bigger cast of characters. I think it gives, um, it gives more perspectives, it gives more, uh, like differing levels of energy and, um, you know, I don't think many people have got the attention anymore for an hour or even a 75 minute keynote if it's like that one talking head, if it's like a stand and deliver thing, which is why when I said before that keynotes are becoming more like films, is that they are becoming these like very uh, like multi act,

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Darren Brooker: productions where you have lots of people short videos, um, broken up by like, um.

I hate the word fireside chats, but you know, all of those, all of those kind of aspects. And I, I think, um, I think as an audience member, um, unless you have somebody who's an incredible communicator, like a Steve Jobs, like you wouldn't want to be listening to them for an hour.

Evan Troxel: Right.

Yeah. There, there's a lot going on on modern keynotes and, and to just kind of talk about that complexity of, of a multi multicast lineup, the

Darren Brooker: Yep.

Evan Troxel: alone. Right. And the timing. And I. to mention all the technology behind it with wireless mics and teleprompters and, I mean, there's just so many things. Speaking of teleprompters, I'm curious like your point of view on, I mean, you talked a little bit about rehearsing and kind of knowing the stuff inside and out, and some people dedicate themselves to that and so that it comes off authentically and naturally. Um, and then there's others who just go up and literally read the teleprompter.

I was at a very large keynote it was like, there was a standing applause and it was like, I need everyone to, the, the person on stage literally said, I need everyone to sit down so I can read the teleprompter, because they, they, they didn't have very many things to say. like just the next thing that we were gonna be doing as a, as a, as a group.

And it was like, I need everyone to sit down so that I, so that I know what to say so that I say, but, but like the level of dependence on, on

Darren Brooker: Wow.

Evan Troxel: I think on, I. Uh, may, maybe it was practice, maybe it was nerves or lack of practice and maybe it was nerves or maybe it was a combination of a bunch of things.

But at the same time, it's like there, there is like kind of this layer of, of extra that a lot of people are worried about, but also depend on, and I'm, I'm curious from your point of view, when you're coaching people and you're working through these

Darren Brooker: Yep.

Evan Troxel: I mean, coming up with a story I'm sure really helps people kind of anchor back into telling a story and not reading features and benefits and bullet points and things like that.

Darren Brooker: Well, some companies, believe it or not, don't even script like Salesforce. Mark Benioff does not read a script. He has a bunch of bullets. He expresses them in the way he wants to express them. Nobody argues with him, but that's part of their company culture. So that's, that's their norm at, and it, and it works for Salesforce at Autodesk.

Um, the norm was teleprompters, but the norm was not to use them as a crutch and not to depend on them. The norm was to finish your script, um, two weeks out to learn it inside out, and then the teleprompter is there for you to free you, right. If you don't have to look at it. Great. It's there and it's tracking you.

And if you lose your train of thought or, um, you want to put in some side anecdote that you've just been thinking about the, the day before on your, on your run that introduced all these new layers, you know, you can come back to, to what was there. Um, so we kind of use it. Yeah, I was just gonna use the, the phrase safety net.

We kind of use it as a safety there. And honestly, um, you know, somebody saying, sit down, I need to read the teleprompter. Why didn't they have one at the bottom of the stage? That's, uh,

Evan Troxel: Yes. Right. Fail

Darren Brooker: that's a production, that's a production company not doing their job. Yeah.

Evan Troxel: perhaps. yeah. I mean, it's, it is interesting. I, I'm curious from, from like where you sit when it comes to, um, telling stories in front of an audience. I mean, do you have any. Kind of immediate or rules of thumb, like when it comes to actually engaging with people, I mean, there's the standard tropes of like, don't read the slides and don't put a certain font on the slides, less than a certain size.

But I'm actually curious more from like an attention point of view, um, to keep people's attention. I think there's a lot of times when people are selling, and you can use storytelling, you could call it story selling. I, I've heard that word recently, this idea of, you know, using these techniques, but then, you know, it doesn't matter if you can't engage an audience.

And, and it just, this applies to webinars, it applies to blog posts, it applies to podcasts, it applies to town hall meetings and keynotes, all of these things. And so from your point of view, like how much time do you actually have to make an impact on somebody so that they're giving you their most precious resource, which is their attention.

Darren Brooker: It used to be 12 seconds. I'm not quite sure it is 12 seconds anymore. Um, yeah, there's, there's a whole bunch of things I can say there, right? Like, people shouldn't be reading slides, nobody should be reading slides. Um, that like, it's, it is just a, it's an attention killer. And I, but I think you know that, that the first words and your, your presence on a stage are hugely important.

And I think there has to be some provocative idea, um, that is within the first couple of sentences of anybody's, um, arrival on stage, which is kind of why I hate the, um, you know, I'm, I'm really excited to be here. It's like, well, show, don't tell. Just be excited and tell us, tell us what you're here to, to talk about.

Evan Troxel: you just described like my opening line for every podcast. So excited to have this conversation. All right. taken.

Darren Brooker: But you can't, you can't show quite as readily. Right. At least, uh, you know, not the way I consume your podcast, but I think, I think being more, being more serious. One, one component, part of, uh, of my workshop is really about leaving gaps. And that's what I talked about when I said, uh, you know, when we, when we get to the second phase of the workshop, the defined phase, and looking at a big idea and breaking it into its component parts, and you break it into its component parts, so you can kind of leave these, um, like information gaps.

Um, you break it into parts for two reasons really. You break it into parts to, to build contrast. So you can, you can take kind of like the, you know, the. The status quo. Something is bad, these tools don't work. And then you can have the, you know, the, the, the blissful ideal of, but with this, you know, this new tool, everything will be more connected.

And, and if you go from those kind of, those, you know, those, those peaks to those troughs, rather than just doing like all peak and then trough, or all trough and then peak, like that one, one is a, one's a sales pitch for one. If you just go, you know, these are all the ways that our software is amazing, you know, will you, will you buy it?

That's like, it's not the most compelling story you could tell. Um, but I think these, these information gaps serve another purpose. Right? And Malcolm Gladwell is a master of doing this. He, he leaves these little gaps in the story and it's, uh, like, it's frustrating as a reader in, in, in the most amazing way.

Like you want to read on, because your curiosity is just like craving for these little pieces. It's kind of like watching a, uh. Watching a murder mystery sometimes, but like leaving these little gaps where people's curiosity can take root. And I think if you do that and you, you don't feed the whole thing to somebody really easily and you actually feed it to them in little pieces and leave gaps between them, actually, I, I think they, they take more ownership of that story because they've had to work, um, to, to kind of be part of your story.

And I'm not suggesting that you make things difficult to understand, but I think it's just about these, these little gaps and, um, um, revealing information quite intentionally, um, in, in different ways. And that's, that's a, a big thing I think, um, that makes for compelling stories.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, I was, so, so I brings up a few thoughts for me, and I think it kind of goes back to this idea of, of some individuals who feel like they have to fill every silence with words and, and talking, right? Like, not being comfortable with silence, which is another form of a, of a gap, right? But, but this idea that, that all of the information has to be presented for someone to make a decision or to move forward.

And I, I don't, that's not the case, right? It's like there's so many times where you would be better served. With a, with a meaningful follow up because somebody is so interested, they just can't wait to hear what happens next. Right? We've, we've all seen the clickbait headlines too, right? You won't believe what happens next.

Darren Brooker: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: then it's like, okay, well I guess I'll click on the article to find out what happens next. But it, it's because it, it's a very human thing to want to know where this is going. And if you tell, tell it all upfront,

Darren Brooker: Yep.

Evan Troxel: no mystery. There's nothing for me to dig into, nothing for me to want to follow up with.

And I see this with architects and technologists all the time. It's like lists and lists and lists of things and the reason why and the other perspective. And here's all, all of the versions of it. And it's like, okay, well I guess that's all of it. I don't need to know anymore. It was actually too much.

And, and therefore now I'm overwhelmed with information and I can't make a decision at all. I can't decide that I wanna follow up on that.

Darren Brooker: Yeah. Yeah. I guess, um, you know, I described the presentation before. That's just like, you know, if you think of the positive up here and the negative down here, and you kind of plot this graph over time, the, the sales pitch is like, it's all at the top, right? It's just a flat line that runs positive, positive, positive.

Um. But then I guess if you think about like, uh, I spent a lot of time when I was in, um, when I was in corporate strategy, we were nestled within the research team under the CTO, bizarrely, not often you'd find corporate strategy in, uh, under A CTO, but that's where it was under Jeff Koski. And, um, I spent a lot of time, we were very kind of research driven.

Um, company research really drove our agenda. Back then in the stories that we told, particularly we tell, you know, stories about what we were doing in our robotics lab when, you know, there was no commercial, no commercialization of, of, of that technology at that point. And, um, spent a lot of time reading that team's research reports.

And they all had the same, um, the same kind of template, right? It's like, here's my research, here's all my findings and here's my conclusion. So it was, it was exactly as you described, right? I'm gonna tell you all the factors that leads me to this conclusion. And I guess, you know, the only time where you do tell everything up front where there's really a legitimate case for that is like an executive summary, where you have these really time star people who are just like, right, just, just, just tell me.

But again, you don't tell 'em everything, right? You distill the most, the most salient, salient pieces. But it's funny with that kind of. Pitch based story and that, um, like r and d type story, like one all along the top, one all along the bottom. Um, like there just isn't any room for, there's no dramatic structure to either of those methods.

And I think that's the key to storytelling and these, these gaps that I talk about is, is dramatic structure.

Evan Troxel: And that is really something that humans are wired for, right? Like you're actually going agra against the grain when you're just dumping it all out there and, and just l leaving it to the audience to sift through or to not have anything to follow up with.

Darren Brooker: Yeah. And we also, you know, we love stories about people. I think when I started the role at Autodesk with Carl Bass, when was that? 2015. Um. We were, we were telling these, uh, these very technology led stories and there were very few people in the stories. They were all stories about products or, um, research.

And even when we like looked out in the world, I remember Carl telling the story to his visit of the New Apple hq, um, you know, the big cylindrical building. And he was struck by the concrete down in the parking garage having like little RFID tags on each of the concrete panels. Um, and I had to put his visuals together.

So I had, as a visual effects artist to come up with a slide. 'cause he couldn't take a photograph of, like, we had this big discussion about what does, if Apple made concrete, what would it look like?

Evan Troxel: huh.

Darren Brooker: And I, and I found, I found a photo of a, of a car in a garage and I spent a long time just rendering. Like a different wall treatment and compositing it in, and like, we got to this beautiful kind of polished, smooth concrete and you know, we, we rejected the Microsoft version of that.

Uh, and sorry, I, um, like I digress here, effort. What was the, what was the point I was trying to make with this digression? I was,

Evan Troxel: I, you, you, you lost me, Darren. I, sorry. I don't know.

Darren Brooker: I think I was talking about the move to people, right? That's, that's where I was, sorry, I di I didn't, I didn't need to speak that thought out loud, but I did. I could have just, I could have just thought harder. Um, no. So we were telling these stories like literally about concrete in a garage and there were, there were no people in this story apart from Carl.

And it was kind of what Carl had seen in the world. Um, and it really, um, took me quite a long time to move Autodesk from this very. Product centric view of what they wanted to tell the world to, to putting people at the center of these stories. And Autodesk customers, man, you know, they do the most interesting things.

What's, they're what keep so many people at that company for so long, um, are what the customers do with that story, with that technology. You know, you, like, you work for Facebook, um, you know, imagine what, what the diversity of their customer output is. But you, you work at Autodesk, you know, you,

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Darren Brooker: you've got people making airplanes, cars, buildings, bridges, blockbuster movies.

You know, there's, there's this like endless supply of these incredible, um, stories. And when, when I started in that role, the way we would tell a story, we were just kind of. Tell the story of the customer and we, we kind of stand behind them and just, you know, hope that we got some positive associations by what they were doing.

And it took me quite a long time for us to kind of step out in our stories and step side by side with the customers. Um, but I kind of, I shifted us from this very research and product and brought people and customers and took us, took us to a place where we were, um, like really, really comfortable telling stories that have purpose at their heart and people at their heart.

Um, and that was, I think that was kind of the key era of storytelling before we got into, you know, we, we, we, we then went back again to technology with platform and ai. But like at that point, uh, which was probably like 2018, I think, uh, the story Autodesk was telling was, um. Was the most poetic expression of that company I've seen.

Evan Troxel: So if we use your abstraction ladder, I mean, talk about the why there, because of that connection. I mean, there's, there's a few reasons that I can think of. I'd love to hear from your point of view, right, of like, why does that make such a difference and why was that so important to you?

Darren Brooker: Why did it make such a difference? I love that you are using my abstraction ladder back on me. You are a, you're a, you're a ninja. Um, I think like we had this, we had this overarching framework of, uh, more, less, better. And I'm not gonna be able to remember it now, but it was the, the inevitability of more, the reality of less and the opportunity of better, which, you know, is a grammatical error should be the opportunity for better.

But, you know, we, we stuck with all the ofs and the, uh. The more was about, you know, inevitable demographic shifts and more people, um, more demand. And then the reality of less was about consumption and our, you know, need to be more, um. Aware of our footprint and our, um, our consumption. And then this opportunity of better was kind of what you could fit.

It was this big umbrella that you kind of fit anything under that addressed those issues. Right. So, and we, we, we kind of put ourselves and our products and our customers underneath that. And there was, you know, there was the keynote in, uh, either 2018 or 2019 where we were just at the peak of our hours.

We'd been telling that story for three years. I, I got Autodesk try and thinking trilogies so that we weren't changing our story every year. And we were kind of telling, evolving the story for three years. And we start to think of kind of like the, the first, second, and third film in the trilogy. And, um, 2018 or 2019, let's get it right.

And the program notes was the final one of the trilogy. So we knew the story really well. We knew how to best to bring it to life and we had such incredible guests. Start year, we had, uh, we had Asa Kaaba from Walt Disney Imagineering. We had, um, we featured a story with Airbus, with Volkswagen, um, and that was in the middle of their kind of emissions scandal.

We, who else did we have that year? Um, yeah, Elizabeth Harris and Bill Change was incredible. It was just, it was us at the peak of our storytelling powers. And I think it was like all the component parts were working and we kind of, you know, we, we hit within that, um, kind of. Inevitability of more reality of less.

There's, there's natural contrast, right? Particularly with the reality of less of the, you know, the, the promise of a better world and a better planet. And, you know, the, the flip side of the coin there is, you know, the, the cost of current practices and the, um, the impact on the planet. And I think something I tell people in storytelling workshops all the time is to, is to look at both sides of an idea, right?

Like, if you are going in pitching something because, um, you know, it, it adds a benefit. Like what's the, what's the pain point? What's the, um, what's the flip side of that idea? And, um, think going back to the kind of the, the format of the workshop and that, that first phase of being discover in your audience, like which, which side of an idea will appeal to an audience more?

Is it the positive aspect? Is it the negative aspect? Because. Sometimes I think we have a tendency to lead with the positive when actually it's the negative that hits home.

Evan Troxel: It's gonna Yeah. Elicit a stronger emotion potentially. Right. And then it get, kind of gets back into that idea of like, what my attention and engagement then could, could actually happen at a deeper level because oh, I, you're striking in my values at this point. Right. And, and that alignment, hopefully, I think is, is gonna be something that could be really powerfully strong. Yeah.

Darren Brooker: Absolutely. Yeah.

Evan Troxel: So, so an interesting perspective that I, I think I brought to, that I was thinking of when you were talking about this, is this idea that, um, bringing in these stories from real people and real companies that aren't you, I mean, it's serving kind of two purposes. it potentially allows me to connect with an example, right?

That, I wouldn't necessarily. or maybe if you did deliver it, believe it because obviously like you're, you're, you're putting this out, this show, this performance on the stage, and I mean there's, I could probably connect more with somebody else telling that story, which leads me to kind of the power of other people talking about you rather than you talking about you and the credibility that that brings. And so, like, I know there's a lot of architects out there who, I mean, you talk about adoption rates in the industry and things like that of technologies and, and a lot of times people are kind of looking for permission or looking for a case study when it comes to giving themselves permission about adopting or moving forward in a, in a way.

Did, were, were all of these kinds of parts of the when you're strategizing the, the messaging that's going out or, or am I coming in from, imagining things.

Darren Brooker: Uh, there are definitely jo dots there that I haven't joined before. It doesn't mean it's not valid, Evan, you know, like we are putting on, you said, a stage performance, that's what these keynotes are, right? Like they can be incredibly scripted and the way you, uh, the way you keep control of it, it's just use your own people, right?

But it, it doesn't serve you well. And I think in terms of that credibility, having somebody, um, provide that case study on, on your behalf, like we never talked in those terms about it honestly, but we were, we would, we would, you know, look for customers that could best bring our story to life or best bring.

A certain aspect to life. Often we, you know, the format of the keynote would be to go from, you know, AEC to manufacturing, to entertainment. And you, you'd, you'd kind of consult with those groups and try and find out, you know, what their priorities were and what they really wanted to talk about. And, and then you'd go on this, um, you know, this hunt for the, for the customer that could, that could bring it to life.

And, you know, that 2018 year as a, at, uh, Walt Disney Imagineering, like he was, he was the dream, like Disney Dream Disney theme parks are about the only place where you can find AEC tools, manufacturing tools and media, entertainment tools all used in concert together. Like he, he was a, he was a unicorn.

And he told his story so well that people thought that, uh, we'd employed a, uh, an actor. Like he was,

Evan Troxel: Wow.

Darren Brooker: a cut above everybody on stage that day. And he, you would not think it, to look at him. He was quite, um, quite introverted, quite in himself in terms of his body language. And then he just came on stage and became this complete other person.

Um, but I think, yeah, that there's somebody else talking about, you got me thinking about something else actually, and kind of professional reputation.

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Darren Brooker: um, I wanted to go back to my, my, that hiring manager, that first boss of mine, John Pitman, like he deserves a, uh, he deserves a definite shout. Shout out.

He's, he's retired now, but he, uh, he had a phrase that he would use, which was, uh, it's my job to put you under exhilarating levels of stress, and that meant that he had a new assignment for you. And he march marched me off. And introduced me to some very senior leader who had some, like tremendously urgent need for some kind of presentational story to be developed.

And I was just like, that's it. Thrown in at the deep end. And I'd been in the job for, you know, like probably not weeks, months at this point. And um, what that really taught me actually was a how to work with a bunch of people with very different working styles. How to flex my own working style to be able to do that.

Um. Um, how to expose myself. What he was doing was just exposing me to a bunch of different ideas from all these different kind of organizations and teams and units within Autodesk. But what it really added up to was, uh, like just the trust that that built in me across the C-Suite very quickly. Like, um, in creating those exhilarating levels of stress for me.

Like John, um, just established this foundation of trust for me and I definitely owe him a debt of thanks for that. But I think, you know, I had like John going round, talking me up, talking about me, giving me that baseline of credibility that just really translated to trust. And I think, you know, trust is just such an important currency.

Evan Troxel: Hmm, absolutely. Well, Darren, this has been a great conversation and I'm excited about your launch because a lot of people use this to their benefit and the power of story and actually having a framework to kind of go through to develop that, that can be used in so many ways, I think is, could be really useful and valuable for people.

So I'll put a link to it in the show notes. It's an unconventional URL, it's great dash, big dash store. E-S-T-O-R. I do ES. Right. So you got the, you got, you got a interesting, I, I love the domain and I love the idea behind this. Um, and it talks about kind of the, the wins that you've had and that you're putting to great use with this new venture.

So I'm excited for people to check it out. So click the link in the show notes. also have a link to you so people can connect with you on LinkedIn, um, and follow up on this episode. anything that we're missing here,

Darren Brooker: No, that's probably where I did fail as a client to myself, was spotting how difficult that domain is to read out. Like it reads great, but then trying to communicate it to somebody else is really tough. Yeah. But it, you know, I went to great lens to secure that Spanish domain, so, so that it, so that it spelled out stories so, so beautifully.

No, thank you so much for your, uh, for your time, Evan. It's been a total pleasure. I.