181: ‘Densities of Information’, with Matt Jezyk

181: ‘Densities of Information’, with Matt Jezyk

[00:00:00]

Evan Troxel: Welcome to the TRXL Podcast. I'm Evan Troxel. Today. I welcome Matt Jezyk to the show. You might recognize his name from my recent campfire episode. Ian Keough where he shared the story of Dynamo, an episode I highly recommend checking out. If you haven't already, you can find that link in the show notes.

Matt has been quietly shaping the tools and technologies that have transformed the AEC industry with over two decades of deep experience, and he is played a leading role in the early days of developing some of the most influential platforms in the space. Autodesk Revit. Dynamo and Project Refinery to name a few, pushing the boundaries of computational and generative design long before they became formidable tools.

He began his journey in architecture, but quickly moved to the software side as a product [00:01:00] manager at Charles River Software. Also known as Revit Technology Corporation, which was, as we all know, acquired by Autodesk early in the two thousands there, he served as a senior engineering manager and focused on creating next gen solutions for AEC workflows.

But he didn't stop there. Well, he did stop there for almost 17 years, but then he took his expertise to Tesla and Rivian where he helped build the systems, powering their smart factories, applying his knowledge of design, automation, and software at an entirely different scale.

Many lessons were learned as we'll hear about in this episode. Now as co-founder and VP of product at Motif, Matt is back in AEC bringing his journey full circle. He's working with a team that is building a new kind of platform for the architectural design process. In typical fashion for guests on this show, it's forward thinking, ambitious, and rooted in the belief that better tools [00:02:00] lead to better outcomes. Through every chapter of his career, Matt has championed automation, creativity, and cross-disciplinary collaboration. He has a knack for sensing where the industry is going and helping it get there. Faster. As usual, there's an extensive amount of additional information in the show notes to explore, so be sure to check those out.

They are, of course, in your podcast app if you're a paid member or if you're a free member, you can find them on TRXL. Co. By the way, Matt does some screen sharing during this episode showing motif. So check it out on YouTube if you're curious. And while you're there, hit the subscribe button to let me know that you're a fan of the show. On YouTube just search for TRXL podcast. That's TRXL podcast. Or find the link in the show notes page at TRXL. Co. All right, now without any further ado, I bring you my conversation with Matt [00:03:00] Jezyk.

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Evan Troxel: Matt, great to have you on the podcast.

Welcome.

Matt Jezyk: Yeah. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. I

Evan Troxel: it's been a long time coming. We've, we've been you know, passing in the hallways at Autodesk University over the years. Uh, been stalking you on LinkedIn for years, uh, and you've been probably listening to episodes of the podcast. And now here we finally are in the same place at the same time.

It's great.

Matt Jezyk: yep. Same thing. I've really, I've enjoyed listening to your podcast. I, I do have to admit that I, I, to them a little bit in like 1.25, 1.5 is a little fast, but 1.25 is like my preferred and, but that I really like the flow and how you're the, well, number one, the guest that you have, but also just the, the line of inquiry you go down is, is really nice to hear.

Evan Troxel: On my other podcast, just to put little context around, I, I totally get the speed thing. I listen to most podcasts at one, 1.25 or 1.5, but [00:04:00] I had another guest on my other show say, um, I go to sleep with you guys every

night.

Matt Jezyk: That's so funny.

Evan Troxel: And it's like, oh,

that's, I

don't do that. I don't listen to podcasts in bed, uh, because I just, I don't, I don't need any extra stimulation, but there are some voices out there that I could, I could see that happening depending on who you're listening to. And it, and then you wouldn't want to be listening at 1.25.

You would want to be listening at, you know, the, the low D of tones of the, the golden

microphone and the deep voice

Matt Jezyk: Exactly. Yeah.

Evan Troxel: Anyway, I thought that was hilarious, but great to have you, and I'm really excited to have a conversation about. Motif and, and what you've been up to and you've had this really interesting path leading to motif.

And motif is like this new thing, this, this, this new thing that's coming out. And, and, uh, we will definitely get to that point, but I would love it if you would just kind of tell your story about how you got from architecture to various places, maybe back [00:05:00] to architecture, um, but you've had this circuitous path over the last decade plus.

Tell

us about it.

Matt Jezyk: Great. Yeah. Uh, so my background, I went to school for architecture, for building architecture, and then. I was always into computers as well, so I ended up getting a concentration, sort of a minor in computer science and then business as well. Um, and that served me pretty well. So I practiced in Boston for a couple years and then ended up joining a startup that, um, had a really mysterious name called Charles River Software, um, back in the day.

And that turned into Revit. Uh, so there was a small startup of mostly computer science mathematician people that had built manufacturing cad, mechanical CAD tools. Um, one called, uh, pro engineer, and then they were doing the same thing in, in architecture.

Uh, so I was one of the first architects that was hired in that team.

And, uh, we worked together and built, um, this thing and then got acquired by [00:06:00] Autodesk and did a bunch of stuff after that. Um, so my life has been, um, building. Software for architects and engineers more so than building buildings myself. But the good thing about that is that you're able to work with people all around the world that are solving some of the hardest problems out there.

And, um, you get exposed to that and, uh, can collaborate with people, you know, like yourselves and, and others, um, that, uh, you know, a normal architect that might be working on one particular building might not, might not have had that experience. So, so yeah. Uh, so I've built Revit, built a bunch of other things like, uh, computational design tools like dynamo, generative design, simulation tools, structural analysis, energy analysis, um, fabrication tools, web cloud, all that kind of fun stuff.

And, um, and now we're doing it in Motif. Um, it's a new company. Uh, we started about two years ago and, um, some [00:07:00] industry veterans kind of came together. Um, but interestingly, all of us that were the founding team. We, we came from Autodesk, but we all left and went into various manufacturing, uh, spaces for a while.

So I, I went into the electric vehicle manufacturing space for about five, six years, um, and learned deeply about like what manufacturing was all about at scale. So how do you not just build one of something, which is what we're really good at in architecture, but how do you build thousands or a hundred thousands or millions of something, uh, and get that efficiency.

Um, and then of course, like scaling. Um, the, one of the concepts we were working on there was the, the factory as a product. Like how do you make factories quickly and efficiently and scale them in order to make more and more of a, of particular products like vehicles or batteries. So, so kind of like learning how to, I.

Take the [00:08:00] best practices for manufacturing and apply them back into architecture as sort of the longer story arc that I'm interested in. Um, but for motif, like what we're trying to do is coming back from this other industry in manufacturing, how do we build a brand new platform that, uh, starts to advance how architectural practice works, how engineering practice works in the building industry, uh, in a, in a similar way to how manufacturing has changed over the last 10, 15 years.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, it's a, it's an interesting kind of path, like I was saying a minute ago, how you've gotten to where you are and actually. Kind of proactively going out of architecture to learn these things and then bring those back into architecture. And I'm just curious kind of what you have brought back from those learning experiences, but we've seen a lot of, you know, the, these kinds of factories for architecture. Do a lot of, you know, funding, venture capital funding. We've seen a [00:09:00] lot of them crumble under the weight of architecture and

manufacturing and just

kind of

Matt Jezyk: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: side

of all

that. And I'm curious, kind of your, before we, we get into the motif side of things, like can you share from, from your perspective that that is really bringing value to where you are now?

Like, what are the le the hard lessons, I mean, there's a ton of hard lessons in there, right?

Am am I wrong?

Matt Jezyk: No, I think the, the, the trail of, uh, sort of modular construction, panelized construction, prefab in general is littered with these sort of corpses of startups that have tried to do something over the last 20 years and all for the best intentions. Uh, I think the problems are not technological. A lot of them come down to the fractured value chain in architecture to begin with and, and different building typologies that have different like kind of cost constraints and sort of efficiencies and, and just the mass production aspect of it in general.

Um, you know, so it's like if you're gonna build, [00:10:00] like basically every building is like a beta if you think about it. Like there's only one of it, right? So.

Evan Troxel: Prototype. Yeah.

Matt Jezyk: It's a prototype. So like how do you gain the learnings that you do the first time you do that? How do you apply that again and again and again? Uh, and that's where you see, you know, things that are repetitive.

So hospitality, residential, retail, um, anything that has a site adapt aspect like a prototype store and then a site adapt. Like there's a learning and sort of efficiencies and, you know, you lock in, um, vendors and, and, uh, manufacturers to build things for you. WeWork would be a good example of that. I think that in their prime, they were knocking out an amazing amount of square footage just from like an interior fit out standpoint.

And they, at some point they had like about two and a half or three curtain wall, um, plants, like manufacturing plants locked in to say, just to generate the storefront that they use for their interior partitions. So that's a case that isn't. It's not really what you hear about [00:11:00] when you think about like, you know, uh, industrialized construction or things that are, have to do with prefab or modular.

Um, but that's the real thing. Like if you take a vertically integrated, uh, building typology, you take something like, like, you know, uh, like a WeWork kind of space or take, uh, like Hilton Hotels or Marriott or something like that, or you know, how many Starbucks are there, apple stores, if you can lock in the suppliers and the manufacturing process and the efficiencies that you get out of standard details and just kind of like roll them out, that's where it gets interesting.

Um, but sadly that, you know, if you think about it as an architectural critic, then that just leads to the, you know, bland verification and sort of, uh, urban sprawl of like the sameness everywhere. But I mean, that, that's kind of where the sweet spot is. I think right now. Interestingly, I don't think residential ever, I.

It took off. I mean, besides like the initial kind of like Levittown things back in the, you know, early fifties, um, you know, the, and, and you know, production home builders of [00:12:00] course too now, but

Evan Troxel: Yep.

Matt Jezyk: the things that you would think of as like high design, architecturally significant buildings that are residential that are able to be mass produced.

Um, I think that there's still a big opportunity there that hasn't been addressed. I mean, you mentioned some of the, the larger flame outs in the past. Um, you know, Katera would come to mind. There were, um, you know, heavily capitalized, amazing ideas. Um. Ran into issues around scale and production and efficiency, and also just building typology.

Like how do you focus on one particular type of a market? Like it could be like, I think they were trying to focus on mid, mid-rise residential in like the Southwest, like okay, like nail that market and don't try and do it in the Pacific Northwest. It's just different or the southeast and different, you know, like, uh, sort of densities of, of units and things like that.

That's, that's the problem is like, it's not a one size fits all. Um, and I think that's one of the siren songs that people hear about in manufacturing. They're [00:13:00] like, oh, I know how to make widgets, or I know how to make these, um, you know, sort of, uh, circuit boards at scale. And then I just gonna scale that up and make a building.

It doesn't really work that way. Uh, be, be for all the reasons that you, that you've mentioned before.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. It's interesting to think about how these companies have failed by trying to be too. Too much like they did. They're just trying to take on more than like, like your example of just focusing on this one thing. Do you think that that's really coming, like that pressure is coming from the funding mechanism of these startups where it's like you've gotta be this a hundred x return kind of a company for those, for those VCs and, and, because I don't know if that's, even if it's possible to achieve that by being so focused on these a market and a region and a delivery type, right?

It's like whatever those components that make up what this modular, prefab companies are doing, it's like, no, we can do it all. And I think that by [00:14:00] thinking we can do it all, gets really, really like, it just waters it down and makes it really difficult then to solve for all those different markets and all those different environments and. I mean, Lance Auto came on the show a long time ago and said, there's something like 30,000 different municipalities in the US and everyone's got a

different version of

code adoption, for

Matt Jezyk: Yeah,

Evan Troxel: Like

Matt Jezyk: exactly.

Evan Troxel: are wild in in the, the architectural practice. And so the construction industry.

So it's, it's really that as soon as people start to try to go wide, it's like, then you really notice it. That, that it kind of

tends to fall apart.

Matt Jezyk: Yep. Yeah, I think, I think that's true. I think the, the standard VC sort of mantra is, is like, you know, they're looking for the, the unicorns, the kind of 10 x or 20 Xers. So if, if you put in.

Evan Troxel: said a hundred, that's probably not the right number.

Matt Jezyk: I mean, yeah, hundreds are great. Yeah. But,

but like, I think, you know, I mean the, the, the, the fact of the matter is for VCs, it's like, you know, and you can look up the metrics.

It's like, say they put [00:15:00] money in 20 companies, they really just need one hit, and then the rest of them are not gonna do that. Great.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Matt Jezyk: but how big is that hit? And that's where the return, like, if you, if you take, you know, an iPhone app like that, the cost of goods for that is relatively low. And the, the sort of size of that market, the total addressable market, or Tam, can be very large.

Uh, and if you monetize that, you know, it's like just a money printing machine. That doesn't happen in, you're dealing with like real physical products and real big things that take time and permits and zoning and people, you know, it's just, it doesn't scale that way. So I think that's usually the kind of natural limit or constraint in some of these is you have a heavily regional, uh, you know, market.

You have a, a. Particular set of buildings or typologies that will work well and lend themselves to mass production. And then you have the sort of upside of like, who's gonna buy it, who's gonna use it? Uh, I think that there are solvable problems there, but I [00:16:00] don't think, um, traditional venture capital is really the best kind of fuel or funding mechanism for a lot of those right now.

I mean, there, there are some VCs that are not interested in the quick return, a kind of two to three to four or five year return. They're interested in a 10 year return. And I think at that scale and at that time horizon, I think it is possible. Uh, and also, I mean, there's other kind of, you know, I hate to say it, but like resiliency at a, at a.

A national level or at a government funding level is useful. Like if you think about how do you recover from a natural disaster, how do you, how do you build housing in the southeast after horrible, you know, hurricanes that happened or in LA recently after the fires like that, there could be kind of an instigation or a kick kickstarting from a funding mechanism at the state or municipal or even the federal level that could, um, give a signal to the market to say, Hey, we're [00:17:00] interested in, in doing something there.

Um, that's actually happening in other countries. Um, in Canada, in Vancouver, there's a really great kind of public, private, uh, thing that's happening with, uh, a company called intelligent,

um, intelligent factories. Intelligent cities. Yeah. Uh, so that's a really great model. And there's some other ones in Europe too that are amazing.

But in the US I think it's a little tricky, but I think that it is something that people will crack over time. But for right now, um, you know, as you mentioned, the, the. It seems like there's this siren song for high-end residential, uh, high design, high-end residential and, and factory built or kind of prefab modular.

Um, but I'm not sure if that's really where, uh, like someone's gonna win, I guess. And it's, it's probably gonna be more on the, um, I, and I think WeWork is like one of those examples that worked. I think, um, I hate to say it, but like, re retail is a good one. Um, you know,

they're,

you know, there's these old, [00:18:00] old, uh, examples of you could, you used to be able to buy an Irish bar in shipping containers.

Like you, you, they would literally design and build an Irish bar and you could put it in two shipping containers and ship it to like Malaysia and set up an Irish bar just 'cause it's in a kit, you know? So like,

why, you know, that's basically the same way that like Starbucks works or like Apple stores work.

It's like they're, they're not really all site built. There's a bunch of pre, pre-created components that. Show up on site and get positioned in the right way.

Evan Troxel: For the ones that go into like a

strip mall or or what, or, yeah.

Yeah.

Matt Jezyk: yeah.

Evan Troxel: type of a

project where it's an

existing framework and then they just need to set it up a box within a box kind of a

thing.

Matt Jezyk: Yeah.

exactly. So, but yeah, but I think, but I think that in, in that space, you, you can use technology to kind of tie back to this and software to identify the opportunities, uh, and, and look at, you know, zoning and look at other kind of infill, you know, uh, sort of site opportunities and, and what's possible.

And, you know, [00:19:00] obviously parametrically configure things and figure out cost and efficiency, that there's a couple startups that are doing interesting work there. Uh, and then the other side of it is just figuring out how to take a design and break it down into smaller pieces that can be fabricated. So I, it's a solvable technology problem, but that's not the constraint.

It's more on the, the market and the, the financials behind it.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's like I think about like the automotive industry, the EV industry that you are in, and kind of the repeatability of those and, and. You know, like for, for example, you look at some of these cars and like, they don't change the

model if they don't have

to, right?

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: especially in the

EV space because it's all about that

factory

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: about kind

of stretching that as long as possible. Um, and, and in architecture, I mean, you're talking about like really wild and volatile market conditions when it comes to pricing of commodity pieces, parts, right? That, that go into building all that [00:20:00] stuff. Uh, and you also have wild labor fluctuations. I mean, maybe the factories solve for that a little bit better than traditional, you know, on site kind of stuff where it's really difficult sometimes to get the right crew on the job at the right time, um, especially in certain locations over others where there may not be as many. People in that industry or, you know, um, businesses that could bid on a project. It just, and, and I think about kind of the time horizon that, that VCs are comfortable with, with that kind of return and how long these projects take to do. Obviously they're trying to compress those schedules in massive ways to, to make that you know, potential being there and, and, and doing a lot of work in a shorter amount of time. man, there's just, uh, this is a tough business to apply that kind of, of thinking to, and I, I, I find it interesting that you went to, you're on the software side of it, right? You're not in the physical side of it [00:21:00] because on the software side of it, if you can gain those efficiencies and make 'em really. Tricked out for different verticals operating in the architecture delivery space. I mean, talk, talk about that as we kinda lead into where you're at now and why you decided to kind of get out of

the, the EV industry and

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: what you've learned and

apply it

back to the a

EC industry.

Matt Jezyk: Definitely. I mean, so in the EV side we were, we were, it's actually kind of cool, it's like designing three different things at once. You design the product, like the vehicle I,

Evan Troxel: facility side, like to be totally clear about that. Right. You, you, you

talked about kind of these factories and, and

Matt Jezyk: mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: places

you

weren't

designing cars I for,

Matt Jezyk: Uh, yeah. I wasn't designing the product, but I was designing the process like the, the, the robots and the assembly lines to make them, and then the building to house and feed the process to make the product. So there's kinda like three different design process, like. You know, there's the design of the, the car and then there's the design of like, how do you get all the parts [00:22:00] to the line to make the car in the right efficiency?

And how many robots do you use versus people and all that. And then there's the, now there's 16 different systems of like compressed air of nitrogen of, of gas and electricity that need to go to those lines and you make a building around that. So

yeah, we were connecting what are called the manufacturing engineers that were making the design ideas for the vehicle with the building engineers and, and, um.

Making sure that they were, those three different design processes were as efficient as possible. Because, you know, like everything else, if you, something changes and then you try and build them and it doesn't line up, then that's a cost overrun or a delay. Um, so yeah, so that was kind of cool. And then using that idea of a factory as a product, like building multiple of them, because they're basically the same, uh, is, is, uh, where you get the economies of scale.

Um, yeah, so I was doing that, but then I got super deep into the, the design of the factories and, and how to make that [00:23:00] efficient, how to tie it to generative design and optimization and those kinds of things. Um, so that was kind of cool. But yeah. But back on. Uh, leaving that space. So we, I stood up things at, uh, uh, company Tesla, and then one at Rivian.

We worked on, on those kind of two different, um, companies. But then about a little more than two years ago, um, one of my old bosses, um, Amar, Hans Ball, we, he was the CO CEO at Autodesk called me up and said, Hey, I've got some ideas that I'd like to work with you on and let's see if we can spin up a new company.

Um, and that was the formation for what we're working on now, which is this thing called Motif. Um, and that was literally the case where he was at a company called Berate Machines, uh, with, uh, our CTO, uh, Brian Matthews and our Chief Design Officer, uh, Lira Koska. So they were all working on. Basically building what are called micro factories, like pre configurable, almost like Lego blocks that [00:24:00] make, um, make it easier to make products.

Um, they were doing that for a while instead of doing design. And then we all kind of came back together and literally got the band back together to start to address how can we build the next generation of design tools for architects and engineers. Um, so based on some of the learnings that we've had, but also just kinda looking at the industry from fresh eyes, like after being away from Autodesk for a while and not really thinking about like what the next version of Revit is or whatever.

It's just like you come back and you look at the problems and like, oh man, things haven't really advanced that much at all. So what are the opportunities now based on the technology available, how the generational shift is happening? Like, I don't wanna design for me, I'm a middle aged white guy. I. I want to design for people that are in college now that are in a design undergrad or graduate degree, because their view of the world is remarkably different than, than mine.

And, and that we're looking at these things from like a generational standpoint. [00:25:00] Like what's the 25 year return, like, things like AutoCAD and Revit and Rhino and SketchUp been around for a while. Uh, you know, uh, Revit is turning 25 years old this year, so not even old enough to drink, but like old enough to rent a car now.

It's like, that's, that's like a big thing. So how do we like. That like, and it, it's, and I, I, I can't even teach my, my, uh, my son these tools. 'cause they're, they're, they're gonna be like, this is broken. Like, this is not how I think, uh, you know, this kid, my, my son just speaking it that way is he grew up playing Minecraft and programming when he was like in seventh grade and Roblox and like the always on kind of instantaneous aspect of, you know, uh, connectivity with his friends and, and how they work together.

And then the tools that he's using professionally, like we talked about music, um, are all on the web. They are all

significantly connected together. Um, and, um, why do we not have tools like that for, for our industry that [00:26:00] are, uh, just how people expect to work these days. Uh, and we can get into that a little bit more.

Evan Troxel: So you've got this seasoned team and I, you said, but got the band back together in, in this term, this, this example might be debatable, but you know, you've, you have the new kids on the block, uh, but Motif just came outta stealth and yet you've been around the block quite a few times and the people on your team have as well.

And I'm really curious how you are looking at this product. the lens of the next generation, because that to me is kind of a fascinating thing. Like of course you could make a new version of the old thing, right? You could, you could trim off things and you could polish things and you could, you know, move the UI around and put it on the web and call it done.

Right? But I think there's probably more to it, and I would, I would love to kind of hear your, your take on how you're

going about doing that.

Matt Jezyk: Sure. so I think the key thing here, uh, that we're looking at is [00:27:00] desktop software. Silos of information. Proprietary file formats are, you know, how people are used to working today. But if you look at. Anything else that you've touched, you know, recently, like how you, how you pay your taxes, how you pay your bills, how you interact with your bank, where you get your music from.

All those things are not tied to your computer and your files anymore. They're usually on, on the web and in the cloud. So why is our professional practice and our, our design, uh, sort of standard still tied up in that? And that's where the industry's been going for a while. But, um, one of the things that we saw as we've been, as we've formed this new company and as we started working with, uh, a set of early adopter, we call them design partner, um, you know, sort of customers or, or sort of partners, if you think about it in the US and over at Europe, we started asking them questions like, what.

What do you guys see as the main challenges? Like, and, and a lot of this did come [00:28:00] from, you know, the, the open letters that were, were, um, you know, started a few years ago. There's a, a set of pretty bright, uh, individuals over in Europe that, um, really started to,

articulate. Yeah, they're, they're starting to, to articulate the real problems, like not just with a technology or a product or something like that, but just like, here's how the industry needs to work and here's how we wanna work in our practice and here's how we're looking for someone to help us in that journey.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Matt Jezyk: Um, so we saw that as a pretty good signal and obviously everybody's been working with these guys for a long time, but, uh, working with them and others, they were able to show us how practice is changing and one of the things that's happened. A little bit before the pandemic, but also accelerated dramatically during the pandemic was the adoption of these sort of, uh, infinite canvas whiteboarding tools.

Um, so, uh, people usually reference [00:29:00] a, a software called Figma, um, which is not really that well used and, and well understood in architecture, but it's very common in, in software design, user experience, you know, product design world. Um, and that is the equivalent would be like, take Adobe in design or, you know, illustrator and make it work on the web, make it, uh, work, um, in a way that you don't really have a bound sort of canvas, like that's why it's called in big canvas.

And, um, works at different levels of scale and detail and is inherently collaborative. Like, that's the key thing is that it's multi-user multiplayer from the start. It's easy to share ideas and bring people into projects like that set of phenomenon of like always on, always accessible and easy to share with others.

I think, um, sparked something in, in our industry where it's the opposite. It's like not always on, not always up to date, not easy to share versus these online tools. Uh, but fig, like I said, so Figma is [00:30:00] not really used that much, but you'll hear that from a lot of startups is like, it's like Figma for BIM or Figma for Revit.

Evan Troxel: Right.

Matt Jezyk: that plays well in the VC community because they understand it. It's a touchstone. But in the regular architecture community. The other infinite canvas tools that people are using are Miro or Mural or these kind of, um, applications that literally took the place of a physical whiteboard in a conference room that people would come together and pin up and get ideas together and do charettes and design critique kind of work.

They needed a way to do that, uh, you know, remote across time and space, but also forcing function when people were not in offices anymore. How do you practice architecture when you can't collaborate together in real time and, and in the same space? So there was a heavy pickup of these tools, and they're actually really easy to use.

You can get the principal level architect to be using it in the same way that, uh, a junior architect or, or someone else can, can use it. You can get [00:31:00] contractors, you can, you know, bring cross disciplinary work together. It's, it's sort of like lowest common denominator from like a, a. Uh, tool set. But also that is the beauty of it too.

You don't have to be a computational design person. You don't have to be the chief parametric person in your company to, to use one of these tools. So there's been a, it, it's really interesting phenomenon there. So how do you use that to inform the next level of design tools too? Uh, 'cause there are problems with this tool.

Like they're, they're two dimension, like, so architects and engineers work in 3D we solve three dimensional problems,

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

Matt Jezyk: but now you're dealing with an artifact of that, a screenshot. If you, if you will like, let me, let me send a screenshot from, from Rhino or Revit to put on this board and we could sketch on top of it and then remember what we were talking about later on.

Like, those kind of, that level of invisible work or sort of, um, uh, Phil Bernstein used to call it like a sawtooth diagram, like you're building up information and then it drops down because [00:32:00] you've exported or you've dumped it out to a different format about

Evan Troxel: of information right.

Matt Jezyk: Great. So like, how do.

Evan Troxel: lossy, right? This process that we go through, it's like somebody leaves a firm loss, right? Somebody loss somebody, you know? Yeah. You get to a certain milestone in the project and then you looks good. Start over kind of a thing. And it's like, so that's what that saw tooth.

It kind of, so if you, if you imagine if you haven't seen this diagram, it's like the profile of the Sydney Opera House, right? It's like, it's like up and then a, a steep drop and then up again, and another arc, and then another steep drop and it keeps going. And, and that's just kind of this linear, if you think about it, kind of linearly.

That's how data loss or, you know, decision making happens throughout the

life of a prog of a

project.

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So, so that's kind of where we're starting with Motif is what if we took the best things from these other applications and made them more purpose built for architects and engineers? Like these tools that are being used today are [00:33:00] great. You know, people are using them day in and day out.

But they're a little bit misappropriated because they are inherently two dimensions and they don't really have an understanding of, uh, how the building goes together or other concepts. They're just kind of like looking at a, literally a photocopy. Um, so,

so that was kind of the, the essence of the idea.

So what we're building is a new platform, and that will take time to do. Uh, you don't rebuild, you know, the primary design applications in this industry overnight. It takes, takes time. Um, but what we have is a platform that, uh, can grow to be that. And the, the first application or the first manifestation of this is focused on basically design, review, collaboration, markup, commenting, and is, uh, meant to be a complimentary tool with.

The primary design applications. Like if you spend your day in Rhino, like right now, there's not really a great way to collaborate across different [00:34:00] teams using Rhino. Uh, how do you do that today? How do you share that information or, or kind of link those things together and how do you do it with Revit or SketchUp or Grasshopper or Dynamo?

Like those kinds of things. People are using them. There's a heavy investment in those applications and that's not gonna change, uh, overnight. But what, how can we work on like the interstitial tissue that connects these things together and, and ultimately makes the design a team sport again, where you can share your ideas more effectively inside your company or outside with other people, or even with the client or with the public.

Um, you know, case in point, like, uh, they're, they're building a new high school where I, where I live, like in, uh, north of, uh, Penn, north of Philadelphia, south of New York. Um, and the state of the art is. I'm gonna show up with a physical model and a SketchUp model and a PowerPoint to a public meeting every month, uh, to talk about the design.

Uh, and there, you know, there, there's a good facilitation process and what if we did [00:35:00] this or that, or that, but it's not, uh, the artifacts are not really supporting that design process or the, the review or collaboration process with whoever the other person is. Whether it's the client or the, the general public or the structural engineer or anybody else.

They're just kind of someone sitting there taking notes and has to take them back to the office and give them to the drafter to, to pick up something. So how can we bring that into this century and make it digital, make it trackable, observable and visible to people that don't have, uh, you know, a professional background or software.

They could just log in and, and see the status of these things.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, I'm, I'm curious to hear. About how you're doing that. Because like you, you're talking about kind of these, these artifacts, right? That, that are created as like a snapshot in time, right? And that is how architects have worked forever, right? Like these phases of delivery. It's always that, right? It's like conceptual design, schematic design, design development, construction documents, right?[00:36:00]

And, and it's like at each one of those phases, and it used to be right, you would only get renderings at the end of DD kind of a thing. Um, again, that artifact and now like the expectations of clients have shifted a lot over the years with the advent of new technology, like real-time rendering for example, right?

Where it's just like, because what used to happen was they would say, where's my, can I get updated renderings? And it was like, no, you can't. Right?

Uh,

Matt Jezyk: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: now it's

like,

of course

renderings are free here. Here

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: And, And,

here's the

latest screen grabs right? Of the model that, that we can then. Send to you because they're good enough, right? They're, they're the real time with all the asset libraries and all of that stuff just makes it like, okay, yeah, I can, I don't, it doesn't have to go to the VIS department first anymore. A designer can just send those directly to a client. But there's still kind of like this artifact nature.

It's not real time in the, in that process of, and again, like our contracts are kind of set up that way, and our billing departments are [00:37:00] set up that way. And there's so many things that are still kind of holding onto or making it so that we, we need to hold onto these, these older ways of doing things.

But then you're also talking about the next generation of people who are gonna be using it, and what, what do they expect? do you mean? Like, that's not a live update. What do you mean? Like, I can't log in and see the latest, greatest and, and so having a place for the next generation or the, the currently adventurous, um, people in our, in our generations, right, who are willing to do that. it's a new way of, of working and it's a, it's a new workflow. Um, and it, it's, I'm curious to just kind of hear like what that is like for you as you roll these things out. Like you have these partner firms are probably legacy firms, right? Like they've been around a while, and of course they want to be modern and current and, and be differentiated in some way or do things better. And at [00:38:00] the same time, they're dealing with all of these other things that are kind of holding us to these legacy models, like delivery methods and the way that standard of care works in the practice of architecture and contracts and all of these things. So, I'm, I'm just curious, like how, what's that been like for you guys as you're developing a new platform, a new way of working with, within an industry that's been

around forever?

Matt Jezyk: Oh yeah, no, that's a good point. I think first off, we know that drawings are not gonna go away. You know, as much as you can look to the future and say, we're gonna build off of models. Sure. Like that's possible. But drawings are artifacts that are contractually mandated and, and represent those milestones that you mentioned.

So having a way to manage those is super important. But having them not be derivative, like having them be tied to the actual design or the work product itself and, and sort of. One thing, I think actually Revit got pretty right was the ability for a view to be live. Where if you [00:39:00] see something that's wrong on a planned view or a sheet, you could go in and just modify it right there.

You don't have to go back to the model and change it and then see the result on the drawing. So thinking about a drawing as the expression of your design intent and how you convey that information is actually super useful. But also having them be artifacts that can be pinned in time to say, Hey, this is what this background 80% set look like on Friday.

You know, that's a moment, that's a release, that's a deliverable. So that's super important. One thing that we have heard, um, interestingly, is that if you think about how that works now, is that people, you know are working in their primary design tool and then they generate a bunch of drawings and they usually, it's all PDFs right now, and you generate whatever, 400, 500 PDFs and

toss em over the wall.

Evan Troxel: my, my cohort on, you know, my, my co-host on my other pod podcast, he just delivered a set of drawings. It was over

2,500 sheets,

Matt Jezyk: Wow,

Evan Troxel: eight buildings.

Like not just one building. Right. But, uh, but [00:40:00]

Matt Jezyk: it's massive. Right? But like, how do you, like, how do you even add, if you were the project architect or kind of principal level person, how do you contribute effectively to that team, which, you know, whatever, you know, metric you have of like people to like produced sheets and whatever. But it's, you know, these teams can be somewhere between 10 to 30, 40 people.

Uh, and they're generating massive amounts of drawing. Like how do you review them? How do you, uh, mentor younger people? How do you even understand what your

professional liability is when on these drawings? you know.

Evan Troxel: mean, I

Matt Jezyk: you know.

Evan Troxel: you talk about like doing work in an office under the observation of an architect and is that architect truly doing that? Like that

is actually what

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: says that you're

to do. Right?

Matt Jezyk: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: it's, it's, it's,

an incredibly difficult thing in, in the, the paradigm of creating buildings today.

Right. the

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: and the CYA that goes on in these drawings and in these specifications and all of these different things. Because I [00:41:00] mean, and I was gonna bring this up earlier when you talk about like. There is no hub, right? There's so many ways to do the, there are hubs, right? But there's so many ways to share things and there are so many ways to collaborate and there are so many places to like stuff files.

And is it in the team? Is it in teams? Is it on the server? Is it in your email? Like, where is it? I don't know. Um, and, and so much so that companies have gotten to the point where they're just like, I don't care where you put it. Like, we

try to pull it all together

Matt Jezyk: Hmm.

Evan Troxel: we basically

declared bankruptcy and said, there's no way we can force people to put stuff in the right

place. It doesn't happen, right?

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: during the

pandemic,

it was like, where's the file? Who knows? Right? Um, it's somewhere. And if that person's offline, like you gotta wait till

they're back online to find it.

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: man, it's just, it's really complex at this stage. And so to your point about just keeping your eye on things and reviewing things and contributing in the role that you have as that senior level [00:42:00] person who is. Technically supposed to do that.

It's so hard. Right. It's

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: really difficult.

Matt Jezyk: Yep. So I think, so one of the things that we, we see as an opportunity is imagine, you know, you're running a mid-sized, you know, project, whatever the 400,000 square foot office fit out or something. You're going to a job meeting, you have to fly, you have to go somewhere. The state of the art now is send me those PDF files and I'll look at them in Bluebeam or you know, whatever other PDF markup tool of choice.

But what happens to, anything you contribute there or ideas that you have or you know, information you wanna share back to the team. It's sort of

Evan Troxel: Mm-hmm.

Matt Jezyk: one thing that even in our, so one thing that we've heard a lot is like the kind of pointy haired bosses, if you will, feel disassociated from the work.

And it, you, you know, like we're all kind of mid-career professionals. Like, you know, you might, you might have been very adept project architect, technical person in, in [00:43:00] these tools and working before, but now you're running around at meetings and,

Evan Troxel: Yeah,

Matt Jezyk: you know, dealing with budgets and you know contracts.

Evan Troxel: Yep.

Matt Jezyk: So, but how do you contribute?

You don't wanna give that person a Revit seat. You don't want them messing around with that model. You don't even want them,

you know, so like, what do you do?

Evan Troxel: the model. Right.

Matt Jezyk: So like, what, what if you, what if that person is sitting on the tarmac at LAX, like waiting to take off and have their iPad and was able to just log into this thing and see the design.

And it wasn't in Revit. It wasn't in Bluebeam, it was just in this new thing called Motif that super clean, easy to use, but always up to date. The linked, the models are all linked and shared so that you see the right 3D information and the right 2D information. And you can contribute, you can have a conversation, you can sketch on top of these things and have comments, um, that go back to the rest of the team as if you were there.

So as if you said, Hey, print out this thing for me. I wanna show you how we did this [00:44:00] detail five years ago. Uh, you know, that's the type of type of mentoring and sort of a professional practice that is very common, but it only works well when you're face to face. What if you could do that more remotely and still feel like you're contributing?

Uh, and that's, it's not a review process, it's a participation process. Participation process and contribution and mentoring opportunity that we think is missing in some of these current tools. And it also lets people. Kind of feel disassociated. Like, I don't even know what this team is doing right now. I hope that, I hope this is okay, but how do I review that?

I don't have time to go through that. How do I even know what to look at? Um, so those kinds of things are opportunities for a collaboration tool to bring people together in the same way that you would expect in any other tool these days. It's like, you know, you just show up. You're there physically, either at the same time in space or asynchronously leaving comments and marking things up.

But those are all tracked in sort of Google Doc style that, uh, you can, you can [00:45:00] observe, go back to see who changed, what, when, and how, and then, you know, respond to a deal with action.

Evan Troxel: You know, the sawtooth idea that you talked about with Phil's kind of chart that he showed and how, just to kind of put a diagram to it, a visual to it, to say, okay, oh, I get that. What you're talking about now, I think changes that, right? Like that's, that's definitely why, why we're talking about what we're talking about, right?

It's this idea of that data loss that the downward part of that chart, you know, minimized or going away. I don't, I don't know where, where you guys see that actually going if, but the, the idea of not having that data loss then to me opens up another potential problem, which is just accumulation over time, which is what designs are, right?

It goes from 30,000 feet down to the smallest detail, but it's also like the number of parts goes up, the number of decisions goes up. Like all of these things are going up, up, up, up, up. And, and so I'm wondering like, how does a [00:46:00] system like yours accommodate for that? Because I, I don't wanna wade through more and more stuff all the time, right?

I, I want to. I want to go in there and see what I need to see without having to jump those hurdles to get, okay, what are we talking about? Where do I find it? Because infinite canvas is not necessarily a good

thing, right?

Matt Jezyk: Exactly. Yeah.

Evan Troxel: right? This is what we're talking about. Um,

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: maybe you can

just kind of

talk to, to, that part of it.

Matt Jezyk: Uh, yeah, so, um, I think what we can do is just talk a little bit conceptually, do you mind if I just share screen

Evan Troxel: No,

Matt Jezyk: now? Like it's easy to show some graphics here. Um.

Evan Troxel: Okay. So for those of you, Matt's gonna share a screen. For those of you who are listening on the podcast, you might want to go over to YouTube. I'll have a link in the show notes to the YouTube version of this show, um, so that you can see what he's doing and, and we'll do our best to describe it. If, if you're not gonna do that.

Matt Jezyk: Yeah, so hopefully I can describe it. So, okay, this seems like it will work. Um, and I promise this is not gonna be super salesy [00:47:00] or anything, but thi this is basically the area we're working in. The, you know, where design happens is in these desktop tools where collaboration happens in, in these kind of new whiteboarding tools.

So what if you could do both? And that's kind of what Motif is. So it's meant to be a new platform to handle architectural design. And to your point, Evan, about like different densities of information and focus, like that's inherently built into this. Like the, the level of information that we have is very deep.

Like there's a lot of information, but you don't need to see it all at one time. There's ways to parse that information out and make it, uh, understandable and also consumable by different audiences. So we can talk about that. So yeah, so we, um, this is what we talked about a kind of 20 minutes ago, just the overall space that we're operating in. Um, and we're building a new platform that can handle different levels of information, but meant to encompass the overall architecture engineering sort of information density [00:48:00] problem.

Uh, and then combining 2D and 3D information together. But the way that we're actually doing that is by segmenting out projects into. Different boards. So if you, if you've ever used these other applications, they have, um, an interface kinda like this, where you have a project and then you have these discreet, uh, spaces to come work in and that there's just an in, it's called an infinite canvas board, um, that you can have one that's focused on.

This is where we're gonna do our brainstorming or bring material samples together, or this one is focused on 2D sheet review or 3D model review or exploring four different options for an entry entryway or something like that. So, however you want to organize your work is there, but the project contains all of your models, all of your ideas, all of your images, all your PDF files, really any information that you need.

Um, to execute the project. And that could [00:49:00] live either directly in Motif or it could be linked, it could be pulling that information in from other places. So we're, to your point before, like there's no single source of truth. Like there's no, everything is collaboration. So go where that information lives and pull it into this or provide a link, is basically our philosophy.

Um, so, but back on the idea of like, how do I even find the right things in an infant canvas, what we found just working with people is that they're, they organize their work in that way. Like, okay, this is our 80% check set board to, to take a look at something and then that is a container that people can work in and, you know, any of the comments or markups in there make sense in that, um, sort of for that activity.

Um, but there might be other ones too. So we're not pre uh, pre-design that for people. It's just kind of a general purpose tool. But all of your information is accessible, uh, over the, the. Really the, the history of the project.

Evan Troxel: [00:50:00] Yeah. And I, and I, I like what you're talking about when it comes to like, okay, the, the source of information is the authoring package that it was created in. Right? And it's brought into here, this is kind of an assembly of parts a conversation, for a collaboration, for a presentation, uh, depending on who the stakeholders are, right?

But this gives everybody a place to do that function of moving the project forward, making decisions

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: happen in

a group

setting or a collaborative setting, or in a presentation. To get that feedback from a client, let's say. like the Revit stuff's in Revit and the Rhino stuff's in Rhino, and those, those really advanced operators of those things are still doing their thing in

those packages, right?

Matt Jezyk: Exactly. And that, that's, this is directly coming from our conversations with our design partners where, you know, every, everyone wants a new. It's a great 3D design

platform

like that, that's [00:51:00] not, that's not,

that's not a secret in this industry, right? So like, yes. Um, but also there's like practical switching costs.

Like, okay, like, you know, how long will it take to build something that's equivalent to

whatever?

Evan Troxel: of a product. Yeah.

Matt Jezyk: And, and also, even if there was something today, like, I mean, I, I was around when we, we got people to use Revit instead of AutoCAD. Like that was a fairly fundamental switching cost of like 2D to 3D Parametrics, all that kind of stuff.

Evan Troxel: One way to say it. I mean, it was painful, right? It

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: get experienced operators from one to the other. Like how many times was like the, the flag goes up and it's like, uh, I surrender.

Export to AutoCAD now.

Matt Jezyk: Exactly. yeah.

Evan Troxel: How many times

did that happen? Many

Matt Jezyk: So we're not, we're not doing that right now. Like we are, we're trying to build. A new platform where you design where you want to design, you design in Revit, you design in Rhino, SketchUp, you know, AutoCAD, whatever, uh, you know, [00:52:00] grasshopper, dynamo, Figma,

you know, it's like, and you're linking that information in, in a dynamic way.

So it's not a static thing where I take a screenshot from Rhino, you're bringing in the Rhino file and you can make that right, you know, moment or view, uh, and show the right information in this system and bring it together and mash it up with other things. Uh, so that's kind of where we're going right now.

And you can operate in 2D or 3D. So you, you take that project architect person that might be really good at, at sketching ideas or detailing something out, how do you give them a space that they can draw in? Like right now they're actually drawing in scarily enough, like Bluebeam or, or even like, you know, in PowerPoint drawing details, like, why not?

Have something that's a little bit more architectural in nature that understands units and scale and, you know, materiality and things like that to express your design ideas in. Um, but still with a very elegant, simple user interface that doesn't require you to be [00:53:00] a cad jockey or a computational kind of nerd to, to do that work.

Um, so that's kind of what we're trying to build in this tool is it's not replacing the primary design applications currently. It's meant to be complimentary. It's meant to be a, a collaboration tool that takes the best of these kind of 2D infinite canvas tools and lets you do that work, but also lets you express your ideas in three dimensions and using that same simple tool set of sketching with a pen or a pencil or your finger, do that directly in 3D as well.

Uh, so that's, that's kind of the essence of what we're. We're building right now is something that's simple, easy to use, and works directly with the primary design tools, uh, in a way that we think matches the, where the industry is going, uh, around how people work in real time collaboration, expecting information to be there [00:54:00] consistently.

Um, we're showing on the screen right now, just our whole team collaborating directly on building a presentation. Um, and a, you know, a mood board or sort of precedent study, uh, directly. Like, why, why should it be someone is in the InDesign file and I'll let you know what I'm done? Or here's a new PDF file.

Like, here's the artifact, like right here. Let's all work on it together. Uh, and everybody contributes and participates and provides their best ideas at that point. Uh, and then of course you can be the, you know, the critic or the markup person and say, no, that's all wrong. Sketch on top of this and say, have you thought about this idea?

You don't need to be generating, you could actually just be advising or modifying or mentoring on top of that too. That's a very important part of all of this process. So, so that's what we're trying to support. Um, but not just in two dimensions. It's also in a, in a three dimensional space as well, so.

Evan Troxel: One of the things that you [00:55:00] showed me earlier in this 3D space that I thought was, know, just to really speak to this idea of how architects actually work is, you know, cutting a section. Using the section box in Revit and then seeing that in motif and then sketching over the top of it. But, you know, we've, we've done this forever, right?

It's like roll out the trace literally over the top of whatever that predetermined view was. But what was different was that the, the sketches that people, like, it's happening on the screen right now. That's

actually in 3D,

Matt Jezyk: Oops.

Evan Troxel: It's, like

linked

to the model and the view. And so you get kind of that like, like we talked earlier about somebody who has all this experience adding value to the process, being able to do that with a tool that they understand they don't have to go into Revit to do this.

And we're also not extracting and abstracting information away from the authoring tool. Like this is kind of a, a sweet little middleman kind of [00:56:00] effort here, where it's like I can draw right on top of the model with a tool. I understand, but it's literally linked to the the 3D elements, which then. go back to the, the person doing the authoring in that original, original program. They can actually see it and they can understand it because it's linked to and, and I can

actually rotate the view,

right? Like I don't

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: go back to

this snapshot, this two dimensional overlay. Like it would happen if you did it in Bluebeam or Miro or whatever, right?

It's

actually 3D.

Matt Jezyk: Exactly. So that, that's really the essence of this thing. I mean, drawing is a creative act. It's, it's meant to be expressive and un helps people understand your thought process. So why not have that work in the primary environment, like in, in your 3D environment and not just not a derive thing. Sketching on top of a PDF file is sort of a waste of time sometimes 'cause you're not able to convey the same information.

So we, we felt it was pretty strong, uh, requirement to get. [00:57:00] Sketching, working natively in the 3D scene. So as you rotate the model, or it just kind of knows where that sketch is, and having that be real time so you can express not just the artifact, but the process that you use to get to that point. Like, you know, drawing as a means to express your, your, your thoughts, um, and get them across to others is super important.

Um, so that's, that's, that's exactly how it works. Um, so currently you can mash up, like in this case we're seeing a Revit file and a Rhino file mashed up together. The Revit is the architecture and the structure, and the rhino is gonna be a great ceiling feature that's digitally fabricated. You can pull them all together.

So similar to how you can work in like Navisworks or, you know, uh, other, other collaboration tools. But ironically, it's not just about clash detection. It's about how do we design this thing? How do we connect these things together and figure out. How they're gonna work structurally or architecturally, uh, and use that to change the [00:58:00] original source, like the Rhino file or the Revit file to mediate or respond to, you know, that, that dance of like, if you move this thing, I'll move that.

Um, so this system in motif captures that collaboration in its purest form, the sketching, the commenting, the, the sort of negotiation of who's gonna do what, and then showing those real time changes. So as what we're seeing on the screen, I just change the Revit model to add some structural beam to hang this thing.

And then we change the rhino file to add some brackets and some hanging rods. Um, that's immediately there. That's not waiting for it to sink to the cloud, or I'll give that to you next Tuesday. It's just there. Collaboration should happen in that space.

Evan Troxel: Very cool. for those of you, again, who aren't watching, there is a visual component to the things that Matt and I are talking about happening in the YouTube version of this right now. If you're on YouTube, sorry, you get to hear me talk about it I'm not talking to you. Um, [00:59:00] but this is, the visual really helps kind of solidify what we're talking about.

A visual example is always beneficial, I think to, to me and this audience, uh, because we're visual, visually inclined, maybe more, more so than than others. But, um, I think it really does kind of help. And, and one of the things I, I loved was, was when, you know, somebody sketched in kind of a section, uh, profile onto this building and then we zoomed in and we rotated and that section stayed. 3D space where it was drawn. And I think it's really interesting that you said that the system just kind of knows where that's supposed to be. It, assume you're drawing this like on a tablet or something and it, and you're literally drawing it on top of a 3D view, and yet it, it lives in 3D space, which I think is pretty cool.

I mean that, that to me is something actually new

that I haven't seen before.

Matt Jezyk: Exactly, and it, that's exactly how it works. We're, we're working in a 3D scene. The geometry can be created directly in Motif, or it can be, [01:00:00] um, brought in from, you know, Revit or Rhino or other tools that, uh, if it comes in from those, it's updating live. If you change something, like you add a wall or move a window, it'll update.

But the information you're adding on top of motif is also geometry. So I can sketch that with a mouse. I can sketch it with my, I use a Surface book, uh, with a a, a pen. You could use your iPad with an Apple pencil or even your finger, like a lot of our displays are multi-touch, you know, capacitance screens.

Anyway, you can just start noodling around with just your finger. Um,

and, uh, and that's the idea. So you're capturing those and they're not precious. It's not, it's not a detail that's gonna be, you know, printed. It's just capturing the, the essence of an idea in a way that can be conveyed to other people, um, and, and facilitate the next level of conversation.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. That to me is really the benefit of a lot of these tools that we're seeing show up on the market. Like there's a lot of multiplayer stuff happening right [01:01:00] now in the browser because the browser kind of.

Agnostic is

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: word, but

Matt Jezyk: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: access, let's

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: to, to

this kind of stuff. And, uh, it does seem to me that this really is table stakes and, and, and as a designer from a previous era, if you want to call it that, right?

It doesn't seem like it was that long ago, but, but maybe it is. I got the idea of realtime collaboration potentially all the time is kind of terrifying, I

have to say. Right? It's

like I, to

Matt Jezyk: Hmm.

Evan Troxel: it, it

makes sense when it makes sense. And then a lot of the other time, like, I just want to be

left to my own devices.

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: This platform

pretty much sets you up for that. You could work either way, right? You could be working together all the time, but also because you're pulling in information from other sources and like real time linking that stuff together. Um, it still gives me the ability to go back to my authoring program for, for those parts of it and work on 'em [01:02:00] there. isol isolation for better or worse. Um, so that I have that control, that as a control enthusiast designer, right? Um, that, that, that's where I like to, you know, that's, I wanna make those decisions. I want to decide the proportions, I want to decide the materials I want to, that's, that's my role on the project. Um, that seems like you're kind of getting the best of both worlds. And I'm, I'm curious, like, what, what is the feedback you're getting on, on stuff like this? I mean, obviously you've, you've pursued this. I assume that that is maybe the feedback that you've gotten and that you're pursuing, like, because it makes sense to a lot of architects, but thinking about it from that through the lens of the next generation and expectations and all those things.

Like, just because that's the way I wanted to do it doesn't mean it's gonna be like that forever. So I'm, I'm just curious like what the feedback is that you've gotten that's really. you to this point. Is it like, there's tons of people who just say, I wanna work collaboratively way more often because I learn more, or, or whatever [01:03:00] those, those reasons are.

what, what have you heard?

Matt Jezyk: Absolutely. I think it's both. I think it's just human nature. It's not really the way architects or engineers work, it's just sometimes you're working on your own thing. You really gotta work out an idea. You have to work out some fundamental principle and you're not ready to share it yet. And that's supported in the system too.

So yeah, you can leave your things off in your own space and only share them when you're ready. Um, and then other times it's, it, it really is this, Hey, let's just get the, the four best minds together and just have at it and have a brainstorming session. But that, that is, you know, a balance. So sometimes you might need to go away for two days and just think about something and work it out.

And then you're ready to share it and present it. So absolutely. That's just human nature. It's just how people work and that's supported.

Evan Troxel: So do you see this as a paradigm shift? Do you see this as an evolution revolution? Like where is this on the scale of, of tools [01:04:00] for

architects?

Matt Jezyk: Yeah, I think, uh, where we are right now is meant to be a connective tissue. I think like we're building a new platform that will be the next platform, but right now what it is, is it's not on a day to day to day basis, you're using your main design tool and that's not gonna change. The thing that will supercharge is this thing can look over your shoulder and watch what you're doing and bring that into a shared environment that, uh, can help you do some of the things that might be difficult or hard or tedious right now, uh, a little bit more easily than before.

I. Um, but the thing that happens in startups, which was really interesting, is that it's not just about the first thing that you put out. It's about every other thing that you put out after that and how quickly you can put out more things. So because we're a small startup, it's all web and cloud. We can put out new versions of the software every month, say, for [01:05:00] example, and add more and more capabilities over time.

Uh, so that's, that's something that you'll see here too, is that this is gonna be a journey and it's gonna be a pretty, pretty fast journey. Uh, there's gonna be some pretty large changes, um, both on how we bring, uh, features out to the collaboration environment that we're talking about, but also how we go beyond that into other spaces like around the 3D modeling or parametrics or machine learning or ai.

Like all those things are facilitated by this platform that we have in place.

Evan Troxel: Can you talk about that from like a user's perspective and what you're hearing? Because to me, you know, adding features my explicit say, so yes, I'm

going to install the new

version.

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: brought it

up on this

podcast before. I remember a project manager was like, are you serious? There's another

new version of Revit.

And that was

every

year? That was only every

year.

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: it was

like, can we

just slow down a little bit? Because like, it's hard. Like, [01:06:00] and those were back in the days when it's like, you don't dare like, take your model from this version to the next version

because you don't know what it's gonna

break.

Right. So

Matt Jezyk: Yeah,

Evan Troxel: different. But

I'm just curious from, from your guys' point of view, obviously when you say it, it makes a lot of sense. Yep. I mean, it's cloud-based, we're releasing new features, the software's getting better and better. at the same time, you know, you've got people who are like, oh, you moved my button.

Right? Like, what did you do? Right.

Matt Jezyk: totally. Yeah. And I, I can, I can argue both sides of that too. Like, I mean, think about your phone, like, you know, we're, we're an Apple family, so we have all iPhones, you know, I have an, I have an Android phone as well just for testing, but the number of updates that happen is fairly, uh, frequent, like every, every.

Evan Troxel: definitely been some other things going on in the world that have kind of us up to

temperature for this type of

Matt Jezyk: Right. So, you know, it used to be that you'd have to wait to get a new, a new laptop to get the new version of Windows or the new version of Mac os. Now these things just kind of happen in [01:07:00] the background while you're sleeping, literally

on your phone or on your car, or on your laptop. So I think that the world's expectations is, are different now than they were maybe 10 years ago.

That said, when you're dealing with professional practice and deadlines and trying to control as much of your environment as possible, that could be disruptive. Absolutely. It's like, oh, like, I mean, it even happens now, like in Teams or Zoom or Slack or anything else, any other tool that you're using.

Those things work this way too. They'll, they'll just push a new, a new version out and you're like, wait, there's a new button here. All of a sudden. Sometimes that's good and sometimes it's not. Um, I think where it gets. Bad is when, when you have a, uh, a software development team or a design team that doesn't understand the primary workflows and use cases that their audience, um, are doing on a daily basis and what they're getting paid to do.

And if they start mucking around with those, uh, to, to the detriment [01:08:00] because there's a shiny new feature that they want to add, that's when you start to get user animosity and sort of frustration around this thing. So I think you can, it really does come back to a, a software design problem, like how do you add new capabilities without breaking the things that you have and without fundamentally changing the information architecture and like the layout.

Conceptual framework, object model of the system in a way that's disruptive and sort of breaks somebody's sort of patterns and paradigms. So I think you can do both, but you have to do it intentionally and make sure you listen to people's feedback. Uh, and that's actually another part of this whole thing is that we're, uh, because we, we have, uh, a lot of people that came from market engineering industry, we have a lot of connections in these partners.

There's a good level of feedback back to us. It's not just we throw it over the wall and we don't listen. It's like they tell us like right away, basically. It's like, Hey, uh, you know, you guys broke this thing and we'll fix it. So, but like often it's, it's, um, it could be [01:09:00] done more intentionally in, in a, in a thought, um, provoking way.

Like, I mean, just adding like AI ML tools is a great example. Like they're. Is a heavy emphasis on those, as you've seen in the marketplace now. And it's easy to sort of, we kind of see it in the same way that people kind of took sustainability to heart before and added features that might be green, but sometimes there's like sort of a greenification kind of problem.

Like it just because you added like an ecotech, like Sun Path diagram doesn't mean you have a sustainable practice. You know what I mean? So like

seeing the same thing from AI and ML standpoint right now, just because you're using like, you know, sort of hugging face or like some other like, you know, image generation tool doesn't mean that's gonna give you great results or you really understand what's happening or you're not violating, you know, uh, some copyright information.

You know, like the, like how do we apply these things intentionally and reasonably and as a, as an industry and then also as a [01:10:00] software provider, how do we provide things that are not gimmicky? They're not. Just to please the market or to make a new press release. They're impactful, they're designed intentionally to support or supplement or enhance a current process as opposed to make it different just because it's different.

Evan Troxel: I'm, I'm curious how you engage with

your audience. You, you

mentioned

Matt Jezyk: I.

Evan Troxel: but like,

okay, so a new app shows up on a new version of an app shows up on my phone and, know, we used to have to go through the process of like, okay, install the update where I could read the release notes and then that's gone, right?

Like nobody reads the release notes anymore. And I've seen a lot of companies now because of the speed of development, they don't take the time to. Create documentation about here's how to use these new tools, here's the new tools, here's how to use them, and here's a place to provide feedback for them because that's, that's another job to do.

Right? I get it. Um, so I, I'm just curious. Like, I've even seen software come out recently. It's [01:11:00] like there's no manual, you don't need it. Right. And, and that may or may not be the case. so I'm, because it's so easy to use, um, and, and again, like I, there's arguments for, there definitely is software like that.

Does it exist in AECI don't know. Um, but, but I'm curious how you guys are handling that, because is just gonna get more and more complicated over time. And if you don't have a system in that, and, and you may have a different take on this than I do, but I feel like if you don't have a system now. When it's easy, and I'm using air quotes, podcasting, air quotes, right, where you, you don't have a huge feature set. You're super focused. You're just trying to deliver kind of this baseline MVP kind of stuff, most valuable, like delivering value early. If you don't have that now, and I, maybe you do, um, but, but how do you do it later when

it's even harder, right?

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a good point. I think, um, it's very topical because we're, we're about to launch the software and, um, [01:12:00] usually documentation is the last thing that happens in anything. But luckily it's the opposite for us because we've been working with a set of people for the last two years. There is documentation, and there's one of the things that we find useful is writing design documents internally with intentionality ourselves.

Like if you can't convey a concept to someone internally in writing and make that point cleanly and clearly, your, your user's not gonna understand it either. So we've written documents like since the beginning, um, that describe how the software should work. Um, the interesting thing now is that the. You know, what, what you, the, the, like any other design process, like your inputs go into this thing and then there's a bunch of things that happen and then what comes out the other end may not line up exactly with what your inputs were.

Evan Troxel: Mm.

Matt Jezyk: but the, the intent is the same where there is a concept, like a frame, like we're looking at these presentation boards right now that are, we call frames. So [01:13:00] there's a concept of a frame, like how should a frame work? Well, it should work like a slide in PowerPoint or like a sheet in Revit where it's sort of like a container that holds stuff like views and you know, text and lines and whatever.

So like that concept should be understandable and documented somewhere in a way that people can easily understand without reading a tome like a large manual. So how do we do that? It's just gonna be a lot of, um, online resources that are contextual and relevant where it's like, how do I do this? I want to do this thing.

And from an end user standpoint, they don't really care if that's from documentation or from a community kind of, uh, forum or sort of, uh, over, you know, sort of discourse discord type thing. Or if it's AI or if it's a help ticket. They just want an answer to their question,

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Matt Jezyk: like, what is this thing? So that's very commonly what you see in software these days is a little thing in the corner that literally ask lets you ask that [01:14:00] question, like, how do I do this thing?

Uh, and

Evan Troxel: in the

corner are like totally invisible to a person like

me. I, I

Matt Jezyk: Hmm.

Evan Troxel: even, because I

wasn't

raised on this way

of doing

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: it's like

I learned a long time ago that the help

menu was not that.

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Evan Troxel: So I, I never even see those little things, that little bug in the

corner like you're talking about.

But, but I

Matt Jezyk: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: you're talking

about the next

generation, and you're talking about people who, who operate software that they're

used to, to doing that.

Matt Jezyk: But we, we do see different learning modalities is like the fancy word for it. Uh, and some people learn better reading things. Other people learn better by looking at a video,

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Matt Jezyk: watching YouTube or listening to a podcast. Like, so those kinds of things I think we're, we are investing in. So, um, we're, and and the what the, another good thing that happens in software is you can see where people go, right?

So like, the equivalent in architecture would be if you're designing a campus, uh, for a [01:15:00] college, right? You, you have a set of buildings and you could design the quad, like the, the middle kind of, you know, grass area and put,

put paths down. But why not let people walk where they wanna walk and then pave them the next year?

So that's kind of how software works, is like, you can see where people go,

Evan Troxel: the

Matt Jezyk: like, not,

Evan Troxel: right?

Matt Jezyk: yeah, not like maliciously or like tracking or, you know, surveillance. It's just more like. You can look at that data and generate a heat map of like, where do people go? What questions do they ask? And then follow that with like, okay, this is clearly where they're going to ask that question.

We should support that. Um, so, and that, that really is that dialogue between like the software and Baker and then the, the end user. Um, and to your point, like change happens, like, you know, desktop software changes infrequently, but web software changes faster. But that doesn't have to be disruptive. It can actually be beneficial if you're listening and you're designing things intentionality with an in intentional purpose.[01:16:00]

Evan Troxel: I, I'm curious what you guys think about the, there's this idea that I've had for a long time, and I, I'm sure this, I, I actually know that this is not my, my idea, it's not even, it's not unique, but it's like things should have

expiration dates.

I think, uh, laws,

Matt Jezyk: Yeah.

Evan Troxel: like

there's a lot

of things out there.

Um. When it comes to tools and features and things like that, right? Like we all use software that's been around, you mentioned several titles that have been around forever and they can never get rid of anything because somebody relies on that. I'm curious what your, what your take is on that, because it seems to me like anything that really is going to be modern of has to think like that.

Like there, there actually are, and if you're a able to look at the data, right? If you're able to look and say, less than 1% does this

thing anymore and you guys are new.

Maybe this

Matt Jezyk: Mm-hmm.

Evan Troxel: you yet,

but,

but there's got there, it seems to me like there's some kind of expiration date on things at least it's like, hey, let's revisit that and look at that again.

Let's look at [01:17:00] the data now and see where this feature sits or you know, certain functionality or workflows or any of these things because it's like you in 20 years, if you're around then, right? Like you can see what happens. We all

can see what happens, right?

Matt Jezyk: Yeah, totally.

Um, I used to, yeah, like at, at Autodesk, like, um, I, I used to work with, uh, you know, guys like Ian Keo and Anthony Hawk and these, and, you know, a bunch of us kinda worked together and there was a point in time when I was not doing Revit anymore, I was doing dyna mode computational stuff and whatever.

But Anthony and I, Anthony was the product manager for Revit at that time. Or, um, and I got to say in customer meetings, it's probably my fault, but it's not my job to fix it anymore. Like there, there's some feature in Revit that didn't work or something like that, but those are very much those cases of like when you design something, there's like a literally a shelf life for it.

There might, it might have been a good idea at that time, but if it hasn't advanced in literally 15 years or [01:18:00] 20 years, something's wrong. Like there should be a, a reduc reductive process or a destructive process. If something's not used or it doesn't make sense, um, it should be taken out and recycled. It should be rebuilt.

Um, and. There's a concept in software called the, the Big Ball of Mud, which is about software accretion, both from a code base and sort of technology standpoint, but also from a user concept and feature standpoint. Like, why don't you take things away? Uh, sometimes it's, it's actually better for people to simply get rid of five things than to add to more.

Uh, so that, that's a very strong, um, concept that I don't think people actually embrace, um, and, and think reductively. So like a good designer actually knows what to take away, and I don't think that that's applied very well in the software industry, but it should be.

Evan Troxel: I think that's one of Dieter Ram's, like

10

Matt Jezyk: Yeah,

Evan Troxel: of good design.

Right.

Matt Jezyk: totally. Yeah,

Evan Troxel: you,

there's no extra.

[01:19:00] Right.

Matt Jezyk: Well, even back in the Renaissance days, like, you know, like Michelangelo, like, how did you know, what is David? Well, I took away everything that wasn't David, you know, so it's okay, like, not to say that, you know, like, but there's, there's a level of, of self-critique and, and honest feedback. And also just metrics, like the things we talked about before.

If something's not being used, why should you have that cognitive load of literally even seeing that button or having that, that code in the code base, like just get rid of it. Uh, and that's, that's hard to do sometimes.

So,

Evan Troxel: I mean, look at, I mean, AutoCAD,

Matt Jezyk: yeah.

Evan Troxel: uh, like

how it's been around literally like forever and, and there you try to take something away, and I guarantee you, because it's a horizontal piece of software that crosses so many industries, like, what are you talking about? I use that every, I use that thing every single day.

That tool, somebody will raise their hand, right? And say, yeah, I use that every single day. Because the user base is so big, it's been around for so long, and they just keep building and building and building and building, and then you get to the point where [01:20:00] you cannot take stuff away because you're gonna break somebody's. And, and I, I get it. Like, that's really hard to deal with. And at the same time, like it's totally keeping us to these. These older systems. And so as a, as a designer, as an architect, and kind of understanding that, yeah, like taking things away that don't serve us anymore like that, could serve us in so many ways in our lives.

And, and yet it's very hard to kind of step back and, and gain that perspective and understand why

that could be beneficial.

Well, this,

this has been a great conversation and I, I'm excited with what you're showing at, at such an early stage. This has been, uh, you know, a great conversation to kind of talk about what it's like to work in this profession and, and maybe for a next generation even more so, like I, I love that you guys are taking that perspective not just trying to replace what exists today, but kind of redefine it and, and build something that, will serve generations in a much more, [01:21:00] you know, useful way.

So I appreciate you

taking the time to share with us today.

Matt Jezyk: Absolutely. And I think that's really, that's how we think about the company too, is that number one, like we don't know all the answers. Like we have some ideas, but we need to collaborate with people, like thought leaders in the industry like yourself and others to, to find what's next. And we're kind of, we're trying to be humble about this stuff.

Like we, we know some things, but we don't know others. And we are trying to listen. Like that's the fundamental thing is when we work with, um, a lot of these early adopter partners that we have, it's not us saying, here's the beautiful thing that we wanna do. It's listening and observing and collaborating with people to find out what is next and literally going on that journey together.

So, so we've been doing that in, in a small forum recently, over the last couple years, but now it's time to go a little broader, so wanna bring more people into that journey with us. So appreciate, um, you know, having this conversation and I'm sure we'll have [01:22:00] more, more to talk about, um, in the future.

Evan Troxel: Well, we'll have links in the show notes for this episode, but if you want to just say where people can go right now if they're driving a car or whatever, and they, they, this episode just deletes as soon as it's over. It'd be

better if you could just say it out loud.

Matt Jezyk: Sure. Yeah. So, uh, I'm Matt Jezyk. I'm from a company called Motif, and our website is Motif, Tif Do io you can find it online and you'll be able to, um, access the software, find out more about what we're up to, and, uh, we'd love to to hear from you.

Evan Troxel: Fantastic. Matt. This

has been a great conversation.

Matt Jezyk: All right. Thanks a lot. See ya.