170: ‘Navigating People, Creativity, and Professional Challenges’, with Jared Anderson

170: ‘Navigating People, Creativity, and Professional Challenges’, with Jared Anderson

Evan Troxel: [00:00:00] Welcome to the TRXL podcast. I'm Evan Troxel. In this episode, I welcome my longtime friend, Jared Anderson, to the podcast. Jared is a licensed therapist, although that's not how he became to be my friend. And today we get into the personal side of the profession and discuss the intersection of trauma and Creativity and professional challenges.

The conversation springs from his extensive experience working with neurodivergent individuals and those with deep seated trauma. He was also the lead singer and keyboard player in our band System Kid, which you can find on all of the streaming music services. You can check the show notes for some links, and you'll hear a little bit more about that time in our lives today when we talk about his history near the beginning of the episode.

Today, Jared and I discuss the importance of mental health, understanding one's [00:01:00] nervous system, how compartmentalization of past traumas affects present behavior, the challenges of introducing innovative ideas within rigid professional structures, how to effectively communicate and navigate interpersonal dynamics in the workplace, some new technologies being used for trauma recovery, and more.

before the conversation gets started, please help me out. If you are finding value in this podcast, please give it a boost by subscribing wherever you listen, it's totally free to do so. And it really helps me attract sponsors, which is what keeps this podcast sustainable. That's quite literally the business model. If you don't subscribe, this show doesn't work. An alternative is for you to support the show directly by becoming a paid member at TRXL.co where you can get ad free episodes. Just click the join button in the lower right hand corner on the website. It's even a justifiable business expense, so think of it that way.

And finally, if you'd like to receive an [00:02:00] email when new episodes are published with all the links and other information as they come out, you can sign up for that at the website as well. Again, that's trxl.co.

This was a really fun conversation with my old friend, and I hope you'll not only find value in it for yourself, but that you'll help add value to the profession by sharing it with your network.

And so now, without further ado, I bring you my conversation with Jared Anderson.

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Evan Troxel: Well, Jared, welcome to the podcast. It's going to be a fun conversation.

Jared Anderson: Oh, I'm so glad to be here. It's so good to see you.

Evan Troxel: Okay, so, I haven't even asked you for your official bio yet, because, like, I know you pretty well, I think, but, but, give us kind of a, what are you professionally doing right now, and, and how could it possibly, um, fit into, like, this, the idea of, you know, technology and architecture [00:03:00] and, uh, and what's going on in the world.

Jared Anderson: Well, this is kind of a weird thing to start with, but relevant to my career, I had a very strange childhood. And, um, immediately when I graduated high school, I went right into working with severely abused children. and neglected kids a group home. And then I did 10 years working with a lot of cool neuro neurodivergent kids and adults.

And so deep trauma and neurodivergence are kind of the overlap. Um, and I'm 45 now. So, so I've been doing 25 years of that. Um, I'm a licensed therapist and I, I specialize in dissociative disorders, which is sort of the compartmentalization that happens when people have to survive.

very challenging things, usually at an early age.

Cause when you're developing that stuff really imprints on your system. So, uh, as I, you know, developed my career, I kind of also was able to look at [00:04:00] the way my nervous system works and being able to see from the inside out what retuning feels like on the inside and what dissociation feels like on the inside, because I can be somewhat dissociative myself, more than the average person. But also, I've sort of been able to be competent on the outside for the most

part. Um, and, uh, meeting you actually is an interesting and sort of very cool, um, experience because, you know, we're all drawn to people that we think are very cool, and you and I going way back, I, it was really cool to spend time with you. You know, starting in my twenties and see the way that your brain processes the

world. And I've always loved hanging out with people who do design type of things, whether it's fashion design, architecture, interiors, things like that. Um, I remember, can I tell [00:05:00] a story

about you? Yeah, Remember, um, you it out if I have to.

you were, um, you were dating this really cool woman who was doing an art installation.

Remember how she was drawing with pencil, those photorealistic. Um, Modern Homes on

like a huge, she was fascinated with Neutra.

yeah. And I remember you and her, she was consulting with

you about tiny details where shadows would fall. And she was literally just drawing with pencil on this huge white wall. And I know that you can rotate objects three dimensionally in your brain, on a, in a way that not everybody can.

So I have these creatives that come to me, film, television, music, design, even like Cancer research and tech and stuff. And so one of the things as we start working is I need to start also defining the way they're experiencing the world [00:06:00] through their sensory experience,

because some people have hyper realistic.

So there's these terms, aphantasia and hyperphantasia. And you may have what's described as hyperphantasia, where you get a more clear picture in your brain. So you can Google, um, aphantasia, hyperphantasia, and there's an image of an apple. And there'll be five different boxes with different, um, so that it'll be a, an empty box, black and white, silhouette of an apple, all the way up to, um, One that's more textured with color and then one that's fully three dimensional and just like a photo of an apple. So people like Temple Grandin, who's a famous, you know, autistic person or person with autism, um, can play photos realistically in her brain. Now, when you're in the home growing up and. You're getting a sense of what feels safe and cozy and adults are looking at you and seeing who you are and you're going, Oh, they see me.

And I think that's how I feel [00:07:00] that I am. And your emotions are going back and forth.

Um, that's an example of like a safe upbringing. But if you're growing up in an environment that's really rough and hard to survive, people who are taking in so much information, also gifted people who have high intelligence, um, they're more likely to feel intense things as traumas.

They really imprint. much more directly because they're like a hot microphone or like a really sensitive antenna. So working with adults who have that sort of trauma, including parts, these modes of survival that are still sort of set in child places in their nervous system. Um, all of that is what I take in.

And this is sort of when, when you were talking about, because I know, I know you have these amazing podcasts where you talk about design. Um, in my brain, I have a sense of this, these, this design factor of how a human experiences the world and when all [00:08:00] of their sort of instrument panel are just really blown up and everything's, which is basically I get an email, I'm experiencing tons of anxiety and depression and I have these addictive patterns because I need relief. Um, that's how I help people. And so my job is to sit over here and watch all of what they're telling me. And then point to them and say, okay, look over

there, look over there. And eventually they start tuning it up so that they have a more accurate read on the world. So I, it's very abstract. I think I'm getting a little too abstract right up front, but that's a broad overview of what I think about and how I think about it.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, I'm curious how you do that because I think, uh, everybody who's in my industry, my profession, um, Has to work with other people, right? And when you're working with other people, it's really amazing to understand those people, right? Because people communicate in very different ways. Like you were saying, like I could rotate something in my brain that's 3d and, and, and I can understand it from, from [00:09:00] multiple angles.

Um, and I work with a lot of people like on the client side, potentially who can't do that at all. right? And it's my job to explain things in a way that makes sense to them. And so it's, um, it would be amazing to have that understanding of people. So I'm curious, like, how do you, I can't imagine it's a short process, right?

So there's, there's kind of this relationship building that needs to happen. How do you do that? But also knowing that you're a really intuitive person, right? Like you ha you, you've always been able to kind of get somebody's number pretty quickly. Um, and, and. It's like this, this superpower that you have.

Um, and I'm just curious, like, how do you go through that process with somebody? Do you, do you do it through, like, having them tell you stories? Do you do it through just a series of questions? Is it kind of a, a formula that you go through, or is it different for everybody? Like, once you maybe get

a little bit of insight, okay, now the, the, the formula changes.

I, we're going to go down this way and figure it out. I'm just curious how that works.

Jared Anderson: [00:10:00] One real challenge just for me as a human being is keeping it real simple. Because, for one thing, um, even though these are highly functional people at their job, when they start talking to me and they know that vulnerable sides of them are likely to be exposed, if I just start rambling off a bunch of stuff like I just did with you, They start to dissociate and they forget that they were listening and they, they, I'm sorry, what did you say? So usually we, I try to just start interacting with them and wait until the end of the session as a way to come back to cognitive thinking. A lot of them have already done therapy. They've already talked about, you know, how much hugs they got in their childhood. They have sort of a basic map that, um, it was violent or it was really a cold sort [00:11:00] of, um, rigid experience, but they don't, for one thing, dissociation is your body hiding you, like, hiding experiences from you.

You can't really notice that you're dissociating in the moment. It's a very strange phenomenon. So when you work with a therapist, I can help you notice it and sort of. So, um, your question, I was going to answer your questions. I was going to start somewhere somewhere and I already started dissociating myself. Um,

Evan Troxel: That's how it goes. I mean, I mean, this idea of like, how do you start to unpack who somebody actually is, right? Like, and actually figure it out, I guess. Like you're, like you said, you're kind of building a map of, of who this person is so that you can be effective with them, right?

Jared Anderson: Okay. Now I have my, I have my, my

moral where I wanted to go. Yeah. So, um, I don't know how many people this is not visual for people. It's just auditory.

Evan Troxel: It's both, but, but most people listen. So

Jared Anderson: [00:12:00] so people who can't see right now, there's a blanket hanging in a straight line

Evan Troxel: Yeah, because I can't tell what it is. I just see a line.

Jared Anderson: yeah, it's a Mexican

Evan Troxel: Okay.

Jared Anderson: and, um, and so, someone comes in and they say, my boss looked at me funny, and I've been ruminating on it for the last three days,

and, um, I just feel like an idiot. And then sometimes I want to murder him.

And so I'll say, Oh, well, let's work with that. That's cool. And I'll say, Yeah.

let's go with that. So, um, we'll start in the recent present, which is like two days ago. And, um, notice if you play the video in your head, if this is someone that can do that, most people can kind of say, yeah, this conversation started this way.

And then he looked at me and he said this thing. So, okay, right there we'll pause the video. And I can notice that They're volume and their voice is already picking up and they're talking quicker and they're starting to use cuss words and I know in my, as I'm tracking with them that, you know, they're starting to hit the gas versus the brakes. They're [00:13:00] accelerating. And, We're, we're dealing with when they need to defend themselves in a more, um, offense versus defense type of way because he was comparing down to me and saying, I'm not a good enough employee, and so I'm going to fight back. Now, this line that's behind me, usually the client, you know, starting on, which would be their left, reading left to right, this is, It is, uh, 9 month in utero birth and then the timeline of their life heading this way onto current day.

They're 34 and I'm pointing to here on the line, which is 10 months. You know, today and then three days ago would just be a little smidge up to this way. And, um, when I tell them to picture the, the look on their boss's face, the thing that they said, we boil it down to a sentence of what was happening to me is that I was being devalued. I was being, I felt powerless. And so we'll say, well, let's go with that. And I, because they've already been talking in therapy for [00:14:00] seven years, um, or because, you know, we have a basic understanding, I'll say, what if you be less thinky about this, less cognitive. intellectual. And, um, notice right now, you're picturing that face and the anger.

Where are you noticing that physically in your body? And oftentimes anger will have like an up energy that they'll feel physically in their body. It might be in their chest. They might notice that their fists are starting to clench up and I'll stop and I'll just give some space. Silences are not awkward when we're doing this work because we're getting out of our head and we're getting into this, ah, you know, type of vibe. And. I might also say you could scan back as you notice that, that knot in your chest, scan back in time, and all of a sudden a memory comes up when they're in 6th grade, when their PE teacher, you know, put them down. And what we're doing is we're, we're starting to line up the feeling in my nervous system with the thought in my [00:15:00] head of I want to kill this person and also noticing 50 percent of my anger is happening right here at the age of 34, but there's some younger part of me that's a 6th grader. That's time traveling. People who have survived a lot of heavy, heavy stuff. They really are almost in sixth grade place. They're time traveling. They're both at 34 and the sixth graders really present. And then what happens is a lot of different events start to overlap. Then I went home from work furious, or I had calmed down a little bit.

But then when my girlfriend looked at me a certain way, I took it out on her the same way. And then when my mom called me, woof, woof, woof. It's been three days of me just both spacing out Dissociated and then wanting to kill everybody that I see on the street. So we're starting to just notice in time all of these Dissociated events that are not really accurate reads. Yeah, my girlfriend annoyed me a little bit, but it [00:16:00] wasn't so much that I wanted to, you know, Punch a hole in the wall. And my mom is a tricky one because my mom was also, you know, didn't protect me when I was in sixth grade, didn't call the school and you know what I mean? So, so what we're doing is people, part of surviving trauma is having a cohesive narrative that both lines up in time and it lines up in your body and where you're feeling these sort of abstract feelings and cognitively in the front of your brain. And people, when, when we work together week by week, I send them out. in the wild after an appointment. And I say, so this week you're going to notice when the gas starts to rev and you're going to notice, am I spacing out? Did I leave the office with my, you know, out of my body and then come back and let me know, how did it go?

Did you remember to sort of read the instrument panel? And that's just tricky. We have to do it usually for a while.

Evan Troxel: It's, it's like everybody has these things going on in their lives and so does everybody else [00:17:00] around them. But it is so hard, I think, for normal people in their day to day To remember that. I mean, that's just sounds so basic and yet it is just so difficult to actually do to know that everybody's experienced something very different than you most likely.

And yet there's still this kind of general application of we're all the same. Right? And on some levels, we are all the same. And on some levels, we are so extremely different. And that has, it's all part of our history that's gotten us where we are. Like, it sounds so simple to even say it out loud, right?

But, This plays out day after day, it plays out with your supervisor, it plays out with your employees, it plays out with your clients, it plays out with the person who works at the city, it plays out with the contractor who's building the project, like, there's just, there's so much there, and like, this whole idea of [00:18:00] disassociation, and like, I can perform, and yet, there's so much complexity underneath the surface that has led to this point, and, And most people, like, there's no time to talk about that.

I, I'm, I'm curious from your point of view, you know, like, like in the busy day to day of, of what normal life is nowadays and with all of the distraction and all of the, the apps and the notifications and everything that's going on that really keeps us from even thinking about that stuff, from really like pulling up the dashboard and looking at what's going on internally, because it's so easy not to nowadays, like what, what are the consequences to that?

What do you think, how do you think? Evolution is going at this point where there's so many things pulling at your attention, which is pretty much your most valuable resource, right? To, in that day to day, that's, that's actually getting in the way of understanding people, and maybe, maybe even understanding why we do things in the first place, or what, Like, [00:19:00] why have I chosen to pursue architecture?

What was that even for? Because the day to day requirements are so high, um, just to get things done. And, and, and then there's all this distraction layer on top of that. Yeah.

Jared Anderson: I didn't answer. There was, you were talking about how do I talk to a client that's really dysregulated and, uh, So all of what I just, just said does speak to, you can kind of talk to them like you probably already do, which is sort of get on their side and say, Oh, yeah, I totally see what you're concerned about, um, and sort of speak to the emotion as opposed to, you know, get away from the logic of they're, they're acting like an idiot, logically, they're just expecting magic from me. Um, and there's a bit of theater. And it's okay to just more speak to the emotion than the logic, but in the day to day, um, mindfulness is very important. That's like the main tool, because you have this default [00:20:00] mode network, which is, um, your, where your basic, where your attention is. Am I, am I daydreaming, or am I, um, looking at the trees and the people as I walk? down the street, hearing the sounds, feeling the climate on my face, the breeze, and it can be as simple as that. It doesn't have to be set a timer and have an app bang a gong when after I've been sitting here clearing my thoughts. If you can pick a time walking from the car into the grocery store, that's fine. and just be in the parking lot, noticing everything and experiencing it. Notice the sense of neutral when you're just doing that. That is you tearing the scale so that you can feel your emotions more accurately. The other thing that's really good news is that the younger generation is experiencing, experiencing the world through their nervous system in more healthy ways. One clue is the word cringe. Kids are speaking to the, the, um, [00:21:00] one of the instruments on our panel that's the most important is whether I'm comparing up or down in the world. Whether I feel like I'm less than people today and I hate myself, or whether I feel pretty good about myself. Or even I'm a full narcissist and I, and I just think I'm better than everybody. Um, when kids talk about, ooh, that's cringe. They're openly talking about the emotion of embarrassment and shame. And they're also talking about where it sits in your body. Cause when you cringe, you go, you get a sort of nauseous feeling of like, Oh, I'm so embarrassed that I said something cheesy right now.

That was cringe. So it's all over Tik TOK. There's a ton, tons of examples of, of where kids are noticing their emotional health and they're talking about what I just talked about. My various speeches about where things are in the nervous system or in the amygdala and the brain. Um, there's just tons of videos about that on Instagram and, uh, and TikTok.

And what's strange is that, our generation, we're that sort of micro generation, um, [00:22:00] What are we at? We're at the end of Gen X? Is that?

Evan Troxel: You, you might be more at the end of it than I am, but yeah.

Jared Anderson: our parents are the Boomers

Evan Troxel: Right.

Jared Anderson: and Boomers see the world more concretely. Um, their parents really didn't sit and feel emotions with them.

And so it's, they almost don't have a belief in feeling like a vibe in your body.

It's kind of tricky sometimes to work with those clients because, um, there's a disconnect between what we can sense in our gut. You know, we have tons of nerve endings all through our vagus nerve and our face, down our neck, into every single organ in our body. And we're starting to discover that it also extends out into our fascia, which is just the whole body. Um, and so you can, you know, you can break your wrist as a kid and then be in therapy talking about an intense emotion and all of a sudden you'll get a sharp pain in your wrist. Because the fascia, there's some, some energy stuck in there. Electrical impulses, we're still figuring out how that [00:23:00] works. And, um, boomers oftentimes don't believe that. They just think it's woo woo. And, you know, I don't have time in, in a 50 55 minute session to, to sort of lecture. And my knowledge is sort of limited by what I've read and also what we even have in research. But, um, we're finding that is very true. And unfortunately, one thing that really gets me heated, the standards for what they teach therapists. are so antiquated. They don't, I had to, oh, I know, I heard that this is a podcast about CEUs. I basically had to do a graduate level of study for four or five years and I get, rack up tons of, of CE. It's not a competition, but I have tons of CEUs. Just

Evan Troxel: with them.

Jared Anderson: experiences is three years and probably 15, 000.

Evan Troxel: Geez.

Jared Anderson: Um, all told because you have to do all kinds of supervision hours

and go to in person. Anyway, [00:24:00] so, um, so yeah, the new generation, they are really starting to figure it out that, you know, when you listen to pop music, there's tons of references to people's therapists and the work that they're doing and you're starting to, you're starting to hear in like, um, people who make culture, like in their memoirs and their autobiographies. I hear cues that they're working with therapists who are doing parts work with them, which is structural dissociation because usually great creators, their brains do work in these quirky ways. They are gifted and they are very traumatized. Usually they were sort of dissociating from a very difficult upbringing and their brain was able to go into these beautiful places and then they made music that really transcended. And so, um, when they go to therapy and they realize, like, You know, my trauma is starting to make it difficult for me to keep my cool on a film set. And then they start to learn some of the processes of [00:25:00] sort of tuning up their nervous system and working with these developmental child things. Um, so it's cool because it's coming out in the art as well.

Some of these television shows that are showing, um, the story out of time. Or the same character is sort of telling its story from like the Angry Fighter version of them, the Sad Child version of them. Um, it's amazing. I love it because people can almost feel a little bit vicariously through just, you know, watching their stories on TV.

Um, and I love the way that your field, people who do, who do these, like design that affects the physical world. Um, you can walk into a building and feel a sense of safety, feel a sense of like, oh, here's a little moment where I can sit over here and the light is a certain way. And there's chairs that bring people together.

Um, there's different smells and, um, because the world is so digital, like you're referencing, people are going to conventions. They're going to in person experiences. So yeah, I [00:26:00] find it thrilling.

Evan Troxel: I love how you kind of weaved in this, this storytelling side of things for people. Like, like we, we had text message conversation the other day where I sent you an interview on Rick Beato's YouTube channel, which I probably have referenced on this podcast before because it's been impactful. I mean, and, and maybe real quick, I would love for you maybe to tell a little bit of story of, of why we know each other well and because we, we played music together for, for a few years, right?

And, and we made music, um, and, and I think even that, that totally ties into all the things you're talking about, kind of what we were doing there. But this idea of using. This disassociative, uh, coping mechanism that people have to, to go somewhere else and make something really interesting. I mean, that, that, that to me, like what you're describing there in my, in my terms is architecture versus buildings.

Like you're, you're actually talking about. Things that are special in, in [00:27:00] different ways than what people normally experience when they just go into any old building, especially like a big box. So, you know, most people spend most of their time in just what I would just call buildings, but not architecture.

And you go somewhere special or someplace that makes you feel special because somebody had an intention to design a space that could take you into a different place, for example. Um, I mean, that was my first experience in architecture was, was, was like noticing that about a place that could do that to me or for me.

And, uh, most buildings aren't architecture, right? It's a small percentage of the overall, but, um, it has the power to do that. But so do so many other forms, like, like you're talking about movies, television, music, right? Painting. There's so many other ways in which creatives can kind of. Take you to another place.

It doesn't have to be a good place. It could just be another place, but it's, but it's one of those things where it's like, you notice something [00:28:00] about it that maybe takes you out of your, your current moment of busy, busy, busy, to just say, Oh, wow, like there's something different or special here. Um, but maybe, maybe before we get to that part of it and, and what, what you're noticing there, like, that's really amazing is like, maybe just tell the story of system kid for a moment.

Jared Anderson: Yeah. Well, you and I grew up, both grew up in the church and we ended up in this sort of DIY church that we were, you know,

just sort of wrapped up in our, in our late

Evan Troxel: Right.

Jared Anderson: and we were, you know, we grew up in this very sad suburb where, um, it was a lack of beautiful colors and design and, um, you know, being able to set something up in a, in a, in a school gymnasium as creatives, I think we would kind of go into a flow state and really just create, um, music and hang, build sets and stages and, and, [00:29:00] and things for, uh, to get us out of suburbia.

And then, um, I had been working in the, in the group home and we started this band and, um, it was so cool because I, you know, not to, to, to butter us up, but like, but we, we were lucky to find good players.

Um, the, the four of us, all, all of us were pretty proficient at what we did and we all have a bit of a design mind. Um, Bart, the drummer, uh, really can drum from a, from a very sort of, um, evocative place as Ray also makes really ambient, amazing, and like sometimes aggressive sounds. And you're incredible because You, um, the bass, you know, when I'm talking with people about their nervous systems, I'll ask particularly musicians, because they're starting to learn a difference between when [00:30:00] they get in their head and get cognitive and very rational, concrete. And I'll say, you're starting to notice the vibe in your gut

of where the pain is sitting in your body. If you were looking at a, at a software, at a recording software, at Pro Tools or whatever, um, what track would, would that vibe be? And they usually say the bass.

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

Jared Anderson: It's the bass guitar because it has so much effect over the sound of a song from behind, from within, um, and It's literally the bass, so, which is important in design. So, we would make this music, and the four of us would kind of go into these flow states in the garage, writing and playing and just jamming. And then, we would start saying, well, what would the logo and the t shirt look like? What would the lighting and the performance look like? And, um, we got to go into L.

A. and go into these clubs and the Roosevelt Hotel, [00:31:00] Roosevelt Hotel. and experience the ambiance of playing at, you know, the Viper Room versus the Roosevelt. And whenever we started thinking visually, you would come back the next day with a deliverable.

You could literally just design it 3D, it would print it on a t shirt already, it would, it would, it would be in the mail, you know, the shipment of CD jewel

cases or

Evan Troxel: execute. Yeah.

Jared Anderson: You are, An executor. Yeah, you do destroy in that particular way. Um, and so, uh, we were all dissociating together. You could say in a really amazing way. It's kind of like a group dissociation and isn't that religion? But let's not go there. So, um, does that speak to how we

Evan Troxel: Yeah. And the name of the band, I think, is also associative

Jared Anderson: kid.

Evan Troxel: to, to what, like, you were doing more [00:32:00] than I think anybody else. Right. But it was very much pulling in and that, that kind of worked its way into the music for sure. Right. Like that was, Where a lot of it

Jared Anderson: Well, and for the listener, a system kid is a child that has grown up and taken from their family and grown up in the sort of, um, the system of

the city sort of services. And, um, I was always a little bit on, on, you know, on the, I don't know what the word is, but, um, because I'm not a system kid. So looking back, there's a little bit of, of sort of, um, appropriation, but it speaks to being dissociated. And it's still in the work that I do, um, because, you know, people with trauma dissociate and kids who are literally dissociated from their families. And I think the four of us, we, we did sort of deal with our emotional lives in the music. And

we talked about it because we were, we were close.

Um, and so, uh, it was kind of [00:33:00] nice to be doing, you know, musical therapy

maybe of sorts, which is creative stuff.

Yeah,

Evan Troxel: yeah, totally. I feel like I'm actually getting back to a point in my life where I'm doing that again, right? Like right now, actually, which is really cool to have this conversation with you now, because that was like, almost 20 years ago that we did that, right? It was, um, so it's like this, this new, it's this new feeling that, but, but I've had it before, right?

It's one of, it just feels new because it's been some time since that's happened. But, um, yeah, it's really incredible to, You too. kind of hear you tell that story, because I would never have told the story like you just did. Like, I don't know what words would have come out, but they wouldn't have been those.

And to get your perspective of kind of how all that happened is, it's fun to listen to. I'll put a link to it in the show notes, because people can actually listen to the music if they want to hear it, um, to see what, what we're talking about here, but System Kids, the name of the band, you can find it on the streaming services for [00:34:00] the songs that we actually put out there.

There were quite a few more that we recorded that never put out, but didn't professionally record them, just kind of garage band type

Jared Anderson: yeah, we were just trying to figuring it

Evan Troxel: but there, yeah, and it was such an interesting process. I remember there was a point in my life. where if you would have asked me what I was going to do, even though I had already gone to architecture school and done, it would have been music.

You know, it was that strong of a pull. Yeah. And I know it's the same for you too. And, um, I'm actually shocked that you're not doing it more, but, but it sounds like you're finding your place in the world with what you're doing. And, and I'm curious from like the standpoint of There's kind of two sides to the same coin in this conversation.

There's the feelings that we have and there's the, the, the analysis, the internal analysis that you're talking about. And then there's like the dealing with other people's side of it, right? Which is how, how do we. How do we figure this out about other people? Are there tools that people can use like for themselves, but also when they're sitting in conversations [00:35:00] in difficult conversations at work?

You know, I think everybody who listens to this podcast knows exactly what I'm talking about when they're kind of on the bleeding edge of technology in architecture. And, you know, to go back to the boomers that you were talking about, who are still in charge at most firms. Um, who just don't get it, or don't, and, and, and have kind of those thoughts and feelings of like, just, just do the work.

Like, that's a very strong push in architecture, because of where architecture has been. Um, For, for how, like, everybody needs to, to experience, there, there's an assumption that you're going to experience the profession the same way that they did. And it's not the case. Like, you're talking about what's showing up in TikToks and Instagram videos nowadays.

Like, that's what's showing up in firms too, right? That these people are bringing this new awareness. It's to the profession of architecture. And there's also generations in architecture who don't want to hear about it. Right? Don't, they think it's woo woo. To go [00:36:00] back to your, your words. Right? And it's like, what do you mean?

Just do your work. Like, just show up, just, and just, just work more. Um, and so, um, As people are experiencing this, um, who are probably on the younger side of the four or five generations that are in that same office today and not being able to talk the language or have the understanding with the, the older generations who are the ones paying the paychecks and, and have built a relationship with the clients and kind of the workflows that need to happen in office, like how did, how did the, how do you deal with, like, are there tools to deal with, um, and to come to a better resolution amongst these multi generational firms and working with

Jared Anderson: Give me, uh, can you give me a scenario?

Evan Troxel: so, yeah, I mean, I think that the scenario is, uh, a lot of people who, who are in this Small niche of architecture who are really [00:37:00] technologically advanced avant garde, like they're bleeding edge. They want to do things better. They want to do things, they want to get rid of the mundane work through automation and tooling, right?

So that they can do, incredible design work, uh, because the timelines are short and the budgets are small. And previously the answer was like, just work harder and, and work more right. And, and you'll get paid the same, you know, there's no such thing as overtime. There's no, like all nighters were typical.

And that's changing, but it's changing so slowly and technology adoption is really difficult in these firms that have been doing the things that they've always done, right? So a lot of times these people are beating up against, you know, a hard ceiling of like, no, we're going to continue to do it the way that we've always done it.

And so how do you, how do you bring these new, ideas, these new, like, introspective understandings, um, understanding [00:38:00] more, a, a bigger range of emotion, um, when you're dealing with people who run the firms who don't.

Jared Anderson: Yeah, it's tricky because the first thing is we want to be careful not to run the risk of condescension of just going how can I sort of fool this old geezer into getting what I, what I want, um, because the tricky thing is that you do sometimes we need to speak to speak the language that they speak, even though our values are not aligning.

And so there is a little bit of, you know, I, I just, you know. Start out by just sort of checking that I'm not being cynical when I go into talking to somebody. Um, the, the next thing is notice is, is keeping in mind, compare up and compare down, which is sort of the shame spectrum and leading with, um, respecting, showing respect to [00:39:00] the person.

I know you want the best for this company and I've noticed that you really care about what we put out there. Um, and so, um, I thought you might be interested in this approach. Okay. Um, that I just found out and it's tricky because, um, you know, unfortunately, if there is someone that's older and maybe just has a, you could just get a sense of rigidity in the way that they see the world. Um, working with rigidity is just tricky.

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

Jared Anderson: There's not often, um, it's a bummer also that, that, that you have to be so flexible and, you know, bend yourself into a Gumby knot just to, to get them to understand. that there are new and smarter and more efficient ways of doing things that sometimes actually working a little bit less is going to increase the outcome because human beings, our brains do need some time to just sort of space out and let the files sort so that we can go back in and do this really, um, intricate, sophisticated sort of [00:40:00] design work. Um, what, so this is like, um, this is sort of the, a designer who's in, uh, a firm and there's a, um, a leadership structure where they're trying to pitch ideas to the leadership that just want to, to do things the old way. Is that what you're

Evan Troxel: Yeah, I think that happens a lot, right? But I don't think that's specific to this profession either, right? There's kind of this, um, that rigid structure is in a lot of creative fields where people go in with this passion for, they come out of school, they want to do things, Um, I don't, I don't want to just say like they want to do things differently, but they have a different point of view than maybe previous generations have, and the structure doesn't allow for that as, as easily as, as they would hope.

And then they, and then they kind of retreat and maybe even go outside of the profession because they just keep hitting [00:41:00] those, these ceilings.

Jared Anderson: So the human brain does naturally, you know, it's designed or it's evolved to, um, to make stories and to make logic out of things. Um, and the main, um, construct is through relationships, um, personalities. That's sort of how we survived is by collectively working together. It's sort of where evolution went is sort of individual creatures, like reptiles, warm blooded animals started to sort of, um, collaborate a little bit more and then humans were able to take things to another level with collaborating when, where I'm, where I'm, what I'm getting at is me as a designer or someone young who wants to bring something special. Um, to the design and to the, the, uh, the career, I guess, um, before I go into the office and deal with this person, I want to deal with the parts of my emotion and the parts of my [00:42:00] personality kind of ask when I go in there and talk to this person with power, what is my relationship with power and what ways were, Teachers and principals, policemen, parents, adults, intimidating to me.

Did I feel misunderstood by them? Did I feel like I never had control in those situations or agency? And so, in the car on the way in, it's okay to talk to yourself a little bit. And say, hey, parts of you that are afraid of this boss, that are just so frustrated with, with how they won't let me move. Feel that when you're driving and anytime, this is a bit of a bird walk, but this is actually very concrete. Anytime you're doing something that's bilateral, anytime the left side and the right side of your body are going back and forth, back and forth. This is when these little micro movements that we do on the steering wheel. Just adjusting the car going a little bit this way, a little bit that way. That's happening subconsciously.

We're not [00:43:00] usually consciously paying attention. We're not consciously paying attention to scanning from the pasta on the left side of the grocery store aisle to the paper towels. But whenever we're, we're, um, walking, showering, driving, you're more likely to zone out.

And, Yeah.

all these autopilot states that are doing bilateral stuff are sorting files, sort of. And you're more likely to have a little bit of emotion, maybe some inspiration, that's when you have your best ideas is on a walk. And so, um, keep your eye on the road. Make sure that you're, like, sort of staying present and then also going in and staying present at the same time. And you might feel a little bit of that frustration, and you might feel yourself starting to space out a little bit, because I'm about to go in and have a hard conversation about, I need more budget for this project.

I really think we should use this material that's going to be striking when, when humans walk into this place. And say, um, like, There's a sense of, get a sense of how old that feels. It's like, yeah, I feel like I'm being treated like a, like a [00:44:00] furious teenager or just like a child. So I want all y'all to sort of sit back and just be cozy playing your video games or whatever. Um, and just go in there. in your full adult form as much as possible. Or you can also bring in your friends, your, you know, loving grandparents and what, and some, sometimes there's this Maya, uh, Angelou, um, clip on Instagram that I've seen recently where she says, invite your ancestors. I know these things sound very woo woo, believe it suggestible even to ourselves. That's why Buddhism and some of these ancient, um, sort of, um, Uh, religious or spiritual or mindful sort of approaches. Even Freud, differentiate between the self, that's witnessing. And some other part that's experiencing,

that's reactive.

Evan Troxel: Mm.

Jared Anderson: And so, um, when we're doing, you know, uh, therapy, [00:45:00] we're, we're trying to start to be self led, which is the most adult me that's talking to you right now on this, you know, video call.

And I noticed you, you nodding that I just said something, and so you and I are confirming that we're here in the now. But when I was telling you the story about us in the garage, I was getting tingles because it was so exciting and I was kind of like back there and I lost you here in the moment. And so we wanted to be able to, in the moment, you know, be able to, just like I said before, sort of like checking the various camera angles, um, and sort of, you know, You know, go in and say, I'm about to walk in this office.

Let me notice if I start to space out when I'm trying to make my point. Let me notice if my, there's a, my throat gets a little caught up. And oftentimes what you want to do is slow down and just stop for a second. You might ask to just run to the restroom and come back. Go in the restroom, breathe for a second, look in the mirror, look at the paper towels, smell the restroom. When you get in your sensory stuff, you start to sort of come back to the building. [00:46:00] And then you can kind of regroup and say, okay, what's important is that I go in there, and remember, he's thinking about budgets, and about, um, You know, bottom line stuff, so I want to speak to what he wants without being too condescending to him, but also sometimes there does take a little bit of theater and just, you know, getting on their side and saying, yeah, I know we want to do something really great.

I know that you've always saw this company as whatever. And so, yeah, I guess there's a little bit of fluffing.

Evan Troxel: I think part of it is, is learning what the game is so that you can play the game the most effectively, right? And, and there's, there's these, there's these characters in the game and you have to learn enough so that you, you said it earlier, like you have to learn how to speak their language. And I feel as a Gen Xer, like a lot of times that was, you know, That the Gen Xers job was to bridge the gap between the older generations and the younger generations because on some level you can speak enough of both languages to actually translate for that for both of them, right?

Because,

Jared Anderson: to really make things happen, you have to be authentic, but you can't be false. [00:47:00] So, so one thing is to listen to them and sort of figure out where they're coming

from. And if you can get a little bit of personal while, while maintaining professional, like get a little bit of the human. Um, there's this thing called ventral vagal state, which is a combination of both feeling rested and sort of. grounded while also feeling energized and motivated and then also being with a person. So when you and I are talking shop about, about music and all that stuff, we're sort of in a ventral vehicle back and forth type of state. So it's a casual type of thing when you're in office with the client or the boss.

And you notice it's, notice the weather. Did it get thick? And did the air get thick in here? Did it, did it get real sort of quiet and almost like, you know, feeding time at the Savannah? Notice that because we're starting to get into fight mode and we're dropping out of that casual state. Um, and that it helps to go and work in this, in the, on the bass line, [00:48:00] which is. sort of a strange type of work to do. It's sort of the direction that therapy is going, but, um, anyway, sorry, I cut you off, but

Evan Troxel: No, what this also makes me think about is kind of this idea at the end of these interactions to ask yourself for a summary of it and actually just write those things down. What did you notice? Because there's so many times where we're just on to the next thing, right? And I think especially in, you know, The world we live in, there is always the next thing and it's right there waiting for this thing to end so that we can go and do the next thing, right?

And, and there's not a lot of time spent just, okay, let's, let's do it. Now let's do a debrief. And if it's just a debrief with yourself, that's fine. If it's a debrief with the other people on your team, that were doing that, what did you notice? What did you notice? How did they take that? And just, and you're just writing it down, just to notice it, and, and really kind of go back.

Because the next time it's not going to be too different from that, right? And so what can you do then to adjust for what [00:49:00] you just learned and do it better the next time I think is a, is a huge deal, right? Like that's something that most people aren't taking the time to do. I don't know how many people like journal out there, right?

But those are the kinds of things where it's just ask yourself for a summary or ask your teammates for a summary at the end and something that you write down or you think will trigger something else. And, and you will. You will get a pretty decent summary at the end that you could then learn from and, and improve on the next time you go do something similar.

Jared Anderson: yeah, that's a fantastic, um, yeah. We say, you know, in therapy session, in a therapy session, the amount of times that I say, what are you noticing now? It's probably the most used

word because sort of passive noticing or active noticing, I guess, um, it, it, helps to associate the opposite of dissociate and What [00:50:00] you're talking about doing it collectively is really cool.

What did you notice and what did you notice and what did I notice? We're now Sort of pooling together a collective type of thing, which is a really special Um, it, you know, it's, it's a special quality of consciousness.

Evan Troxel: hmm.

Jared Anderson: There's a study of consciousness. I have the book over here. Um, uh, it's The Strange Order of Things.

It's this, it's sort of a intense read. It's, you almost want to take it in chunks because, um, but there's a, a, a leading scholar at USC, um, who writes about how consciousness works scientifically, how it works, um, you know, in the course of evolution. Um, even the word cultures, he sort of connects how cultures and bacteria, how bacteria sense their little world and where's the food and how do I reproduce, um, there's a parallel with how human culture is our collective noticing, like what you're talking about in a mini way, um, after a meeting, [00:51:00] but in a macro way. around Marvel or Taylor Swift. Um, is sort of like we're pulling our values in the direction that we're moving. Um, like when we talk about TikTok. So in in a design group, um, putting that on paper, you do want to keep something concrete, um, so that you have a map of what you're doing. Just like in, just like, what's, what's the guy, um, who created the, the, um, what, what, I have it right there, uh, let me just grab it, sometimes I forget the name of it, let me look at this.

He's the record producer who worked with David Bowie, Oblique Strategies,

Evan Troxel: Mm hmm.

Jared Anderson: that in a creative, you want a frame. You want rules so that you have at least some parameter to then go crazy and just create in a creative way. So, you know, these oblique strategy cards,

Evan Troxel: [00:52:00] I've heard of that. Yeah. Um, there, there's different versions of that. There's, there's one

Jared Anderson: Brian Eno

Evan Troxel: know, has, has a set. Um, there's some famous architects, like the Eames have a set type, I think. Um, and then there's like the IDEO. Um, there's a D school at Stanford and IDO is a, it's a design firm that's like just a design firm.

They'll do anything. And they use these kind of strategy cards to kind of kick off conversations and just see where they go. And it's just

Jared Anderson: David Byrne has something to do with it too, maybe?

Evan Troxel: I think that that's another one. Yeah. Um,

Jared Anderson: he does, doesn't he?

I

Evan Troxel: but this idea of it, that's a very architectural idea to architectural training, which is like you, you basically define a language.

Yeah. Or a set of rules for your project, and then you find ways in which you break them, right, because you don't have to follow the rules that you made, but, but the rules help you as a kind of guiding principles to go through and understand, like, what is the map of this project from a very guiding principles level?

And then where do you very decisively [00:53:00] decide to break those rules, right, to achieve something? Important, for example, you know, yeah, yeah, it's interesting to think about that. A lot of architects are trained that way, but I think a lot of, we forget that we were trained like that. Um, and it's, it's good to go back and think about those kind of foundational things in architectural training that make us a little bit different than, than a lot of other people out there when it comes to problem solving.

So, yeah.

Jared Anderson: have, my, my scaffolding is I have to know the basic goal of every age level of a human. Yeah. Um, developing, like what, what it, because fetuses are, are very impacted by the, what mother was feeling. And then when you're born in the first year, the fifth year, um, the twelfth year are some important sort of, uh, milestones.

So I'll be sitting talking to an adult who may be in their fifties. And we'll start off with the problem that is a very fifty something year old problem on a, on a, let's say like a film set. And then, [00:54:00] um, the feeling and the emotion may actually be pre verbal.

Evan Troxel: Hmm. Wow.

Jared Anderson: And so it's weird, halfway through the session, once they get into their nervous system, I may be talking to this person in their 50s. Like a baby, like very soft, gentle. Oh yeah. Not a lot of language. Oh, ouch. That's rough, which would creep a lot of people out before you go through puberty or maybe around the age of eight, earnestness, like Mr. Rogers vibes is, is. People hate that. It's so cheesy. And so, so whatever. But the weird thing is that I have this design scaffolding in my head and because it is real and it actually, it's true that people can very much associate that way.

Um, that's sort of proof that this 50 year old would never let me talk to them that way, but they, when they were that age, never got it. And right now through a zoom call, they'll get it. It's, it's a very strange type of thing, but. I can't be [00:55:00] jumping around from like, baby to teenager, um, it will really throw the person

off and they'll hate it and they'll leave and never come back. Um, so there is, I have to sort of go into a session knowing I, you know, based on what we did, where we're going on the map. And after the session, that same thing, like you said, I have to write down what I noticed because I can't always be writing while I'm working with them real

time. Um, and I do wish I could do it more collaboratively.

I am jealous that you get to work in

Evan Troxel: Mm, mm, yeah.

Jared Anderson: design, and that your day is not about physical design. Dealing with suffering. Or maybe it is. I do, I do tend to hang out with architects and there is a, a level of suffering that

y'all.

Evan Troxel: sure, for sure. So, so something that you said there just makes me want to ask about kind of the timeline of a session. And I think that this applies to any interaction that you have with, with people. It could be a meeting, like, so it could be formal, it could be [00:56:00] informal, right? But there's always kind of this initial state of the whole idea of what an icebreaker is for, right?

Is to get to the point where we can actually have a conversation. Yeah. And, and you talked about, like, at the point in the session where you get. into the nervous system, right? And, and there's like this higher level of comfort to just have the conversation, but, but this goes for, for meetings too, right?

And so do you have any, um, tips or tools that you use to kind of try to get to that state? Um, because this also applies to creativity and flow state and things like that, where it's like, it doesn't just show up when you want it to, like you have to go through maybe a series of steps and people probably know themselves What works for them to get into the states when they need to.

Like a video presentation that I think of when I'm talking about this kind of thing, is John Cleese has a great video on YouTube, a much younger John Cleese, where he talks about creativity and management and how you kind of, need, need to go [00:57:00] into one, but then you need to go out of that state to get into this other one and think about completely different things.

And you really shouldn't try to mesh them together. A lot of times I feel like in a creative field like architecture, there's kind of this overwhelming feeling of, we need efficiency, we need the bottom line, we need, and then, and then that's in total conflict with the creative process a lot of times, right?

And so you need both. Like the business wouldn't be there without both of them, but, but to, to mesh them too much actually messes with the, the process in a very detrimental way, not too different from a conversation. Like, how do you get to the point where you can actually get to people being open and comfortable and more relationship versus transactional?

Do you have any, any tips or tools in that kind of, from your practice that might apply to what we're talking about, like my, my profession?

Jared Anderson: Yeah, I don't, I don't invite them to sort of jump right into the problem.

Um, we first, we say hello and we'll maybe check what's the energy like? I'm curious what you were doing right before this and maybe you [00:58:00] can notice. Do you still feel the intensity? It could be pleasant or unpleasant, the intensity.

Maybe they're really pumped on something that they're making. Um, and then we'll notice that coming in. Okay, and now we're transitioning to this thing about how we feel and I call it hugonomics sometimes. Um, and, um, once we're doing the work that, that, that, We do in a, in a therapy session, um, it's circles. So, um, we're noticing, um, the human body will sort of normally circled up a little bit into energy and then sort of down. We'll start to slump and yawn, get spacey. Um, if we're working on something a little more intense and we, we titrate, we can't just jump into something that's really angering or depressing and get stuck there. I need to know that, that, um, week by week, as we're, if we're going to go into the dark cave. Before we go in there that they had the ability to come out and get back to work and be productive, which is tricky because these are oftentimes pretty [00:59:00] intense, um, sophisticated people doing big work. And so, um, we have to do a lot of noticing.

Am I back or am I activated? Um, and go back and forth, titrating back. Um, that's also what helps work out the kinks. naturally noticing the change in something a little bit more intense and then we could orient back to the room

Evan Troxel: Mm hmm.

Jared Anderson: and just say, where does my curiosity go? Does it go visual? Oh, there's my plant.

Okay. Yeah. Oh, okay. Well, how, what did that breath feel like? When I noticed you saw your plant and you took a breath and when you look at your, I have this climbing plant all over this corner of my office. Um, and I just noticed when I'm talking to you, I noticed you a little bit more than being in my head, thinking about what I'm about to

say. I noticed my chest kind of settled and my stomach felt a little bit more pleasant. My shoulders kind of came down. Okay. So I'm transitioning from what I want to say. Is it going to be good enough for the podcast to, Oh, I'm [01:00:00] hanging out with E. And then I love this plant.

And so we do that. And the nice thing is in the middle of a session, oftentimes something will release. Maybe we've been working on it for several weeks, but, um, they'll notice, oh, this thing that is really rooted in something that happened in sixth grade. I'm not in sixth grade anymore. My body knows that as well. And so when I go in and that thing is annoying, it's only 50 percent annoying. It's not a hundred percent annoying.

And then I can go home and see my partner. And, um, he didn't really piss me off because it has nothing to do with my boss. Because also, also at the end of the work day, I really like paid attention to the transition of like, okay, I'm going to sort of let some of this fall off when I walked from the office into the car. And then. A lot of times we really want to do nice, kind, cozy things for our sensory. Is it a podcast drive? Is it a roll down the windows drive? Is it music? [01:01:00] Um, you know, lighting, like incense or putting a scent in the house? Really noticing that I really want to smell some delicious Indian food tonight. And I need to put some music on and notice the change when I

put the music on. Oh, that really changed the vibe in here, collectively. We do kind of need to do those things for ourselves. Sometimes we get dissociated from noticing that ICON, I can get up and go to the bathroom. I've been sitting here having to go to the bathroom and I, and I, I forgot to let myself do that.

And a lot of times that's rooted in some other stuff of like, well, am I worth even taking care of myself?

But, um, but my job is to point and say, notice this, notice that, notice this. And hopefully we start to do that. And it, it really improves. It does improve productivity because we're noticing what's wrong about my state right now.

That's, yeah. Not allowing me to go into that creative flow state. I need to do a little, [01:02:00] you know, like doing like witchcraft or religion. Well, let me not get into the philosophies of all that stuff because, um, there are things we also just don't know about the world. When you look at quantum physics and stuff, um, the universe and God, I'm, I'm not, I'm not, um, devaluing that information, but a ritual, which is sort of the shared thing. Human beings and ritual can be really important to transition us so that our nervous system knows I was doing that. And now I'm doing, and whether it's going from creative to more, you know, um, accounting and that type of stuff or the other way around, we can kind of get a sense of how we transition ourselves with a little bit of love and kindness, not to be cheesy, but

Evan Troxel: Yeah,

I'm curious what the, like, it sounds like everybody's got some amount of this structural disassociation, [01:03:00] right? And this compartmentalization of past traumas and, and I'm just curious, like, what the value is in your eyes of working through that stuff, like, because you're, you're seeing you're doing this for a reason, right?

And, and everybody has these things. And, and I think a lot of times we feel like I'm not going to deal with that, like there's not any value in dealing with that because I have enough in front of me right now that I need to worry about, right? And so when it comes to like, what are the benefits of going through this

Jared Anderson: Well, I would say for

Evan Troxel: bad, those things that come up and you're like, Oh, that doesn't serve me anymore.

I don't need to, I don't need to deal with that anymore, even though you may be unconsciously been dealing with it for decades at that point.

Jared Anderson: it is a broad spectrum. So for people who did get enough hugs in their childhood, for the most part, particularly if you can remember just a good deal of things from your childhood, we, we lose a ton of memory. You're not expected to know, remember everything. And some people have [01:04:00] superior autobiographical memory. But, um, some people, their, their, their childhood's a total blur, and that's a bit of a red flag. And so, um, If, if, if you know that you're relatively well regulated and not super reactive in the world, then, um, your sense of like, it could just be your inner child. It can just be being kind to the sensitive part of you and the vulnerable part of you and just keep it, you know, one younger you and then just the you in the present that witnesses.

I am feeling a little sad today. I'm a little, just a little touchy today. I don't really feel good in these clothes today. Um, but for people who don't know what it's like. Those of us who have survived much more complicated things, including if it was a very rigid, cold experience as a child. And it's hard for those people because they can't point and say, I was beaten or sexually abused. But, um, if your parents were very rigid, it was a very Midwestern or a super like rigidly religious type of experience. There can be some pretty [01:05:00] intense, um, even dissociation, but certainly like attachment injuries, which is about how you feel love and how you're seen or, or see other people. Um, And so, um, that's when you're going to have parts of you that have to defend you in opposing ways.

The parts that really want to go toward the person you love and the parts that run away from them at the same time. Now you really have to dissociate because you need to survive in two different ways and those are both very sophisticated ways of surviving. And that's when you might want to go talk to somebody who can work in these sort of, you know, if you get the book, The Body Keeps the Score, and you skip to the end, there's a list of sort of forward moving Um, uh, therapies, and there are technologies like, um, TMS, Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation.

Um, that can be really cool for, like, where you experience, like, unsafe things in your brain. There's, um, vagus nerve stimulation. They can implant for some people that have pretty severe [01:06:00] depression. Um, something in your vagus nerve, which is the main nerve that tells you what emotions are coming from your body down to your gut. Um, there's EMDR, although be careful with EMDR for people who have severe trauma, it's, it's a little, it's a blunt tool. It's, it's, it's, EMDR is that bilateral back and forth stuff, but in a therapy session. And some people will go get trained in it, and then they'll just start doing it, and then people will dissociate and get super activated.

But, um, anyway, go get that book. And, um, like, one thing you'll look for if, if you have somebody in your life that you love, but, oftentimes people who are very charismatic. very gifted and creative and had a difficult childhood can be both so charismatic and also very reactive. They feel things so strong.

Like everything is just a raw nerve, um, up and down. And so that may be someone who has structural dissociation, but they, you, you wouldn't know it usually unless you realize, [01:07:00] well, I really am a different me when this happens. And then I'm a different me when this happens. And there's a lot of like antiquated diagnoses and people, this is a bit controversial.

Some people are going to have a problem with me saying this, but, um, Trauma specialists look at the DSM, which is sort of the insurance manual of, um, problem, psychological problems, and, um, something like personality disorders, like borderline personality. Um, trauma therapists don't hold too tight to that stuff.

They see that as someone who has different parts of themself that's rooted in their nervous system. The parts that had to fight, the parts that had to shut down the parts that had to go into like a play dead mode, which is what depression essentially is. Um, and so, uh, um, I went way off the path of what you just asked me.

I get real excited and I just start,

Evan Troxel: Me too.

Jared Anderson: I go into like nerd town with my own, stuff. But yeah,

Evan Troxel: It is interesting to think about how much of the, the internal, like how much value that, so, [01:08:00] so you're either clearing through, the trauma kind of stuff so that you can be a better you right at, at your job or, or in your personal life. Um, but also like the things that you can actually bring, um, that.

Maybe you don't need to clear, but, but you need to remember who you are and why you're a certain way can add so much richness to whatever it is that you do. And to me, like that, I think that that, when I think about the benefits of like doing this exploration, whether it's personal exploration or trying to figure out the people that you have to deal with, what are the ways I can communicate, how can I relate to them in this moment can add a lot of riches to it.

And to me, like the real value is just the. The more valuable, uh, interactions we can have with people by, by kind of doing this work on ourselves, but also trying to figure out other people.

Jared Anderson: For the people, particularly these creative, charismatic, neurodivergent, uh, type of brains that can dissociate [01:09:00] in sometimes lovely ways because you learn to enjoy it almost because you can control, control it a little bit more and sort of watch the instrument panel as it's happening, which you're dissociating into your design work when you're sitting down and you sort of lose time.

Evan Troxel: Mm hmm.

Jared Anderson: the parts of you that are feeling things really strongly and maybe really like wrapped up in this, this dynamic with your, your boss or someone. When you notice these different parts of you that want to fight or shut down, uh, what we'll do is we'll start to talk to them like inner children and people will start to naturally design this inner space. where those parts of themselves live that, um, well, I'll tell you mine is, I have this sense of, it's kind of like a, there's this Japanese concept of Mecha, which is like a huge robot that you can, it's like a vehicle as well, like Voltron. And, um, and so, It's a time machine. It's also like, it [01:10:00] can travel through time and it's, it's where like her parts of me hang out and it has a lot of senses of who I, you know, I love music.

I love Prince. Um, so part of it's purple. Um, the design on the outside is like metallic blue with purple elements and Um, my clients will have this magic treehouse where once they start to go there, they start to calm down in the session and notice their nervous system and people who have been through terrible, terrible things and actually have different, like multiple personalities or dissociative identity disorder. Um, I've worked with people who have spreadsheets and have designed. ways in which, um, their parts are organized beautifully and like, um, I can't be too specific, but let's say they're different countries around, around like a new planet. And so the angry parts of me can live in this, this island. And, um, People with hyperphantasia, they can kind of do this, like when you're at, they can dissociate when they're at the dentist and they're getting a root canal, they can just go into their little place and [01:11:00] do amazing things in there and know that they're actively dissociating,

Evan Troxel: Mm.

Jared Anderson: um, and It helps them when they're looking at a really stressful week at work. I'll say, why don't you take these parts of you that are nervous about these upcoming things and why don't you go through the flight plan of what's going to happen. And so they say, on Monday, this is going to happen. On a Wednesday, we have to get in front of a group of people and talk. And they'll notice all these parts kind of settle into their little beanbag chairs and their little compartments, kind of like in their little Star Trek spaceship. And again, it may sound really woo woo to people, But, um, you know, actually the, the opportunity to say this to a group of designers is kind of important because people are right now building apps to organize different survival parts. Um, there are concepts like the five survival imperatives are attach, Shame, fear, flight and fight, which are sort of nervous system states. And [01:12:00] like I told you about there, also you have to understand sort of like the developmental stages and stuff. And so when someone designs an app where you can sort of map what's going on in your world with your relationships and check in with like, I got really activated in a fight type of way. Um, VR is going to be really important for

this because people with aphantasia who don't have an inner, inner, like, view of, can't see things in their head, they can put on a VR headset and sort of go into these calming places or be able to destroy something and so that they can finally basically get back at their stepmom or whatever. Um, you know what I

mean? And it helps the nervous system, um, complete actions. So you're no longer that activated or triggered moving forward. And the nice thing is that it has to have human elements. We can never eliminate humans from this. equation, but you know, just having a zoom and being able to connect with [01:13:00] other humans, therapists, things like that. Sort of brings that in to where there could be technology and humans helping each

Evan Troxel: Mm hmm.

Jared Anderson: Um, and you know, if, if you could actually design like your inter spaceship on a phone, on a phone or in Um, through AI or something, and then, no, today this happened, I'm going to this part of me. Being able to concretize things is the realm of design professionals. People who make things concrete,

so. You can cut out some of the other bullshit and just, um, put that in there. Cause that's sort of my,

Evan Troxel: That's, uh, my heart's plea. that's cool.

Jared Anderson: And, and give me a cut. Um, please consult with me, I'd like a percentage. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Evan Troxel: man, this has been a fun conversation. And I've, I've learned a lot today. I feel like, um, I'm also learning this stuff in my life, right? And to kind of hear the science behind it from your [01:14:00] perspective in a very different field and through the experiences that you're having working with clients through these podcasts.

traumas and through all of these things. It's just been, it's an incredible resource, uh, for, for me to be able to ask you these questions, but also to, to give, you know, this conversation to a larger audience. And so I appreciate, I appreciate you doing this.

Jared Anderson: Well, you've been an incredible resource for me, both in the way that your brain works and also because you're a calm, safe person, you know, which is sort of speaks to what we do is meeting people that are chill and fun to hang out with and smart. So, uh, yeah, I love you. You're the best.

Evan Troxel: Thanks. Love you too.