168: ‘The Challenges of Under-Digitization in AEC’, with César Flores Rodríguez

168: ‘The Challenges of Under-Digitization in AEC’, with César Flores Rodríguez

Evan Troxel: [00:00:00] Welcome to the TRXL podcast. I'm Evan Troxel, and a little bit of housekeeping before we get into this episode, because October is a busy month for me. And I just returned from the AEC Acoustics Leadership Retreat in Melrose, Florida that I spoke about in the recent episode with Phil Reed and Adam Thomas. I highly recommend that you check that episode out if you missed it.

And the links in the show notes to learn more about the event, because if I could sum up that retreat in one word, it would be: transformational. And that is not hyperbole.

The good news is they have another event coming up in April, which has a different angle. It's a little bit more technical. So again, check out the links in the show notes for that episode with Phil Reed and Adam Thomas.

I'll also be attending Autodesk University once again, this time in San Diego, California, [00:01:00] as I'm sure many of you will be too. And if that's the case, connect and message me on LinkedIn while you're there, I would love to say hello.

Okay. In this episode, I welcome Cesar Flores Rodriguez. Cesar is the Chief Division Officer of the Planning and Design Division and Digital Twin Business Unit Lead at Nemetschek. Cesar has more than 25 years of experience in the cloud space, especially in solutions for the AEC industry. Prior to joining Nemetschek Group, he was Managing Director of Radius Telecoms Europe, and CSO of the listed NFON AG, both companies active in the telecoms and cloud space.

Before that, Cesar was one of the founders and managing director of Conject Group, the leading common data environment provider for the construction industry in Europe, which he successfully sold to Aconex, which is now part of Oracle, his early career. It was formed in strategy [00:02:00] consulting at Mercer Management Consulting, which is now Oliver Wyman. He also holds a German Spanish double diploma in business administration.

In this episode, Cesar and I talk about various challenges and opportunities in digitizing the under digitized AEC sector. A lot of today's conversation is framed by looking through the lens of digital twins, which I know can be a trigger word for a lot of you, but I think it's worth hearing about how Nemetschek is approaching this because it is a little bit different. We cover real-time monitoring, cost reduction, energy efficiency, and a lot more. We get into the specifics of Nemetschek new open DTwin platform and the challenging task of driving industry adoption.

As always, I would appreciate your help in giving this podcast a boost in the very big media landscape by subscribing, wherever you listen. It really does help. And if you'd like to receive an email, when episodes are published with all of the links and other information [00:03:00] from the episodes , You can sign up at trxl.co.

This was a fantastic conversation with Cesar and I hope you'll not only find value in it for yourself, but that you'll help add value to the profession by sharing it with your network. And now without further ado. I bring you my conversation with Cesar Flores Rodriguez.

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Evan Troxel: Cesar, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you.

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: Thanks for having me here, Evan. It's a great pleasure.

Evan Troxel: And as we just said, we're on opposite sides of the planet right now. And that's not new for this podcast, but it's in the evening where you are, it's in the morning where I am. You're coming from Munich, Germany. I'm coming from Oregon on the west coast of the United States. And it's a pleasure to have you here, but also just thinking about it, like how it applies to the AEC industry and how teams have become global, and I know you're not new to that concept, [00:04:00] maybe, maybe you can, uh, just Take us through a little bit of your history and how you've gotten to where you are at Nemetschek.

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: I'm happy to do so, Evan, um, so I started in this industry, uh, in the year 2000, uh, approximately, uh, given that I founded a startup at that point in time called Conject, that was very much focused on the collaboration between the different parties, uh, involved in complex projects, uh, like architects and engineers and owners, investors, and all the consultants.

That's how it all started. It eventually moved on, uh, given that we sold it to a company called Aconex at that point in time, uh, and then, uh, we sold Aconex, uh, to Oracle, uh, and then I moved on and did some consulting works, uh, and that's how I got in contact with Nemetschek again, which is, as you're probably aware of, a very well renowned company [00:05:00] here in Germany for fully focusing on software for the AECO industry.

Evan Troxel: and how did you get interested in, in AEC? Was it purely through the connections through the software industry or was it something else?

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: In my very first life, job life, uh, I had been doing some consulting already before at two companies, Ruhlenberg and Oliver Wyman. And during these jobs, I actually came the first time into real contact with the real estate and construction industry. Uh, I was fascinated and I also saw the endless possibilities given that.

Our industry is under digitized. Um, I still see, even now after 25 years, probably that's why I've got gray hair for the ones who see me on video. Um, I see the many possibilities, um, our segment offers. And I realized this very early on, I was fascinated and we started to work on it, uh, with a couple of [00:06:00] friends.

And, uh, that's how it all began.

Evan Troxel: So when you say under digitized, I mean, I, I hear that term a lot. Can you, from, from your perspective, kind of explain what you mean when you say that? Because I think a lot of people repeat those words because they've heard somebody else say it. It must be true. Tell, tell us what, what you mean by that.

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: And have seen many, many processes that are either manual or or paper based, or in every sense very unproductive. So let me give you a couple of examples.

Evan Troxel: Perfect.

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: If I look at something like permitting, it's still a process, at least I can say that for some countries where I'm very close to here in continental Europe, that you need to print out everything that was digitally produced at the very beginning, be it in some nice BIM authoring tools and including all the documentation related to it.

You print [00:07:00] everything out. And you bring it to your local authority regarding the local permit for it. And then they scan it again and put this back with some feedback. And you do exactly the same. You kind of introduce all these changes back again. into your digital document and then you print it out again.

So that's for me, something that is a little bit outdated and these are changes. I think that where we can have a very positive effect upon, um, and this is just one example. The same is true for the handover process, which is. It's also something that has been done for decades manually, and it's still partially being done manually, instead of having a proper handover process in a digital way in front of you.

And we have seen already some very positive changes, um, seeing the introduction of CAD software at some point in time. Now with BIM software [00:08:00] illusionizing into the architect's, um, uh, field. So there's many, many, many good examples, but there's much more that we can do in order to digitize our industry.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, I think about all of the different municipalities, all of the different, uh, areas in the process, the steps along the process where just because the technology exists does not, there's no guarantee that people will adopt it or even properly, um, trying to think of the right word here, but adopt is, is what's coming to my brain, right?

Like there, there's just because it exists, doesn't mean that that is going to happen. And so there's training. And there's, there's so many, they have to see the value in it, but they also have to understand where it goes beyond them. Right? And I think a lot of times we introduce these, or we don't introduce, we continue to do these steps because My incentive isn't there to make it necessarily easy for the [00:09:00] next step to happen, right?

This is the way we've always done it, is something that comes up a lot on this podcast, and that, that kind of plagues the, the industry, right, when it comes to moving forward, is, well, this is the way we've always done it, and that we use that as an excuse, and, and the we is multi layered, right? There's, there's many layers to the we onion. And, and so when we think about this idea of technology existing, and you can see the vision of where it can go, but then there are so many individuals along that pathway, and all of these different, you know, machines that already exist out there. And, and I mean, that's something that you're coming up against quite often at Nemetschek, right?

Like you, you create software for the industry and you listen to a lot of people, but at the same time, there's a lot of people who are just not open to hearing. These things, right?

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: I couldn't agree more with every word that you just said, um, given that that's how I have experienced it as well. and Nemetschek as well. When he started this company 60 [00:10:00] years ago, and then eventually came up with software solutions for all the engineers, calculating, statics, and other things, that's how it all started.

He had to overcome all these obstacles, and that's the same still today. I'll make a very recent example. As you know, we just started the digital twin here at Nemetschek, and It's not a resistance, it's rather sticking to the old habit of how a building is managed and how it's been refurbished and maintained.

It's such a pity that 95, there's no software or digital replica of a building in so many cases around the globe. Even of very prominent buildings around the globe, there's no digital representation of it. And I believe that represents a huge opportunity, uh, for all the software vendors around the globe as well.

Evan Troxel: There, there's been a few people come on the podcast to [00:11:00] talk about digital twins and some of the conclusions that we've come to on the show, uh, have to do with owners who, what we would call maybe like a serial owner, they, they have many properties or many buildings. And it tended, at least at the time of those conversations, it tended to make sense for owners like that, who are going to. Really be invested in the operations facilities management in a, in a very digital plus analog sense as they move forward. But the onesie twosies, the, the, the small, you know, if, if, if, if an owner has one building or two buildings, like understanding the value proposition of, What a digital twin could potentially be for them.

I think it was is a hard pill to swallow. It's very difficult to have adoption in there. Has anything changed in the in the past few years in that regard when it comes to I mean because like let's be honest. There's a big. step. There's a big [00:12:00] threshold to cross for an owner to continue to maintain a digital twin copy of their physical building, right?

I mean, there, you have to learn software. You have to keep that software up to date. You have to train those people to do that in addition to, you know, the, the physical manual work that they're potentially doing on the building as well. I mean, has anything changed in the past few years in that regard?

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: Uh, not really, with maybe a couple of exceptions related to, The reality capture has become far cheaper and far easier to realize. If I compare that to, let's say, even five years ago. Um, the second bit is that the connection to existing BMS systems or sensors in a building has also become far easier with some of the connectors becoming more standardized.

Most of the sensors now having an IP address that you can [00:13:00] actually call and therefore then have a proper and meaningful insight into that room or into an outdoor sensor related to temperature or humidity or whatever it is. And so some things have changed, but still, it needs some work. In addition to it, to get it really up and running and to maintain it.

It took us three days to do a full reality capture of the Nemetschek headquarters, for example. It's a 40, 000 square meter house. We connected then all the sensors and we connected also all the sensors to some of the assets. That are in the building and effectively it took us, I'd say, two to three weeks time depending on how detailed you want to go to really fully capture this building into a digital twin.

Now, the value that we perceive, and that's the turning point, is that it must be higher. then eventually the cost that you have in A, getting it [00:14:00] fully captured and B, maintained at that level. So what we see more and more with our customers as a value for them that they perceive as very high is cost efficiencies, energy reduction, then also playing with sustainability and sustainability reports as well that play a vital role, but also some of the processes given that.

You can actually, for example, do some part of the inspections, even remote, um, if required. So there's, for the owners that have maybe a portfolio of buildings, the value is higher, and the more complex the building is with more assets, um, so asset density plays a vital role. I think the higher the value that is perceived out of the digital twin.

Evan Troxel: It is interesting to think about this from an owner's perspective, because I think the criticism of digital twin technology in AEC is that it's a solution looking for a problem, right? It's like, it doesn't equally apply to everybody, I think is one way to look at that. [00:15:00] the other thing is, is like that you were just talking about, the value has to be higher than what it's going to take to actually do this and then do it over time, a very, you know, for as long as the building exists, potentially, right?

So, um, that is a, that is a difficult, um, problem statement for many to say, yeah, we're willing to go down that path. And, um, I come from a world of architecture in the public realm, right? And what I have found on projects that I have worked on, several projects, they don't even have a budget to maintain the building once they get it built.

Like they're spending all of the money just building the project. And they, they're like, we'll figure that part out later. And I think that that's wild, right? And so, Is there even the, the possibility of this digital twin technology being useful, valuable for them? So it sounds like what, what you're saying is, is from a sustainability standpoint and from [00:16:00] potentially even a remote operation standpoint. I mean, there's definitely value to be found there, but, but again, the owners still have to be willing to do that, right? Mm hmm, mm

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: I agree with what you just said. So the owner needs to be willing and to realize that value, um, is there always a budget for it? No. So it's really on us together working sometimes with a client and if I look at the, uh, public site and it's about then going through a tender as well and there needs to be a budget for that tender then in order to really make it happen.

But eventually the outcome of cost efficiency. Uh, and equally, uh, uh, well, combined with energy, um, uh, reduction or consumption, a reduction, plays a vital role. And I believe that's going to happen more and more as we see a regulation coming in strongly in a way to Let's say, control energy in buildings much better as we [00:17:00] have seen so far.

I don't know if you are aware, but in Spain for example, there has been some regulation in place, that at 10pm, in inner cities, you have to turn off the light. Um, in shops and in banks, for example, so where you don't need light, but you need to control that. You need to have a report on that. You need to ensure that it really happens from a customer perspective.

That's where something like a digital twin can really help you because this, I believe, is only the start of it. There will be much more processes of that kind coming through regulation.

Evan Troxel: It's interesting to think about this situation from kind of a, um, What's the word I'm looking for? It's like when you can play these scenarios out in advance, right? You can, you can basically do a simulation on if we turn this off at this time, or if we manage these things in this way, maybe it's the window shades to manage solar heat gain, or then we can, you can actually tie those. things to budget numbers, [00:18:00] right? And then you can actually play that out ahead of time without trying it in real time. Try it in the computer, right? First before you do it in the physical world to actually see what you can expect potentially to come out of those things. I mean, is that, are you seeing people kind of play these digital twins kind of like a video game where they're doing these scenarios, running scenarios for all kinds of things like that?

And maybe you can give some examples of the types of things people are doing with them.

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: Yeah, I think what you're alluding to is simulations of these kind of things. It may be all sorts of things, by the way, it may be heating, um, for example, it may be lightening, um, and we see that very often, uh, at Nemetschek, um, overall. So we have seen customers that even then, uh, turned off full buildings.

We had that for the first time two years ago, um, during the sort of energy crisis, as we called it here over in Europe. Um, given that there was a [00:19:00] strong power shortage, um, and then customers slowly started to turn off full office buildings and said we're going to redirect all our people to go to the other building.

We put some integrated workspace management that allows the people then to book their places and go in and we shut down. Water, electricity, and every other consumption, um, source, um, in the other building. And now they are starting off, well, again, some buildings, as people are getting back more and more to the offices.

But that's how they manage it. And now they are starting to optimize that. Because, um, actually office buildings are very inefficient, in a sense that they are not used at night, and they are usually not used over the weekend. So they are actually consuming energy, nevertheless, in all these times. So there's a lot of optimization in the not office hours that can happen for a building.

[00:20:00] I

Evan Troxel: office buildings didn't turn off and nobody was going to them, but they continued to operate as if they were full of people. I mean, I saw that first firsthand, you could have three people in an office, but it was operating as if it was full of 300 people with the lighting, with the cooling, with the heating, with the window shade, with, with everything. And that building had sensors. It had the ability to do the things that you're talking about. And so is, is it, does it actually just take a crisis? Like what is actually going to get people to change their behavior in order? Again, the tools exist. You can actually link the digital twin to the building management system.

You can remote control a building. You can get these reports. You can run these situ simulations. And yet, I mean, it's amazing to hear that, that that's happening in a place like Spain, but I, I think in the U. S. I, I would be surprised if it's happening hardly anywhere. I mean, maybe it is happening in, in [00:21:00] very large urban areas in, in certain situations, but, and our building stock is so old compared to, you know, having lots of buildings don't have sensors, right?

Lots of buildings don't have these remote control abilities. So there, there's this huge spectrum of. technology that exists in the physical world. There's so many barriers to something like this. I mean, it just sounds like a monumental thing to overcome. And, and I'm just wondering, like, is it actually just going to take more critical, urgent scenarios, like an energy crisis for people to actually perk up?

And because in my house, I'm sorry to go on so long here in my house, when I leave for vacation, like I, I do all of these things because I pay the bills. Right? And so, and so, like, people who manage buildings, I don't, like, it's not their money. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a corporate entity's money, and [00:22:00] it's just the cost of doing business.

And again, like, kind of really critically analyzing these things is, again, back to my idea, is such a monumental task to, to really take this on. And so Is it a crisis? Is that what we need? More crises to, to drive

behavioral change?

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: Okay, so first of all, Exogene factors like the energy crisis, um, uh, obviously, obviously have fostered many changes in the world. Take home office as a good example. Suddenly home office was everywhere. Um, so that's a typical example of how things can change rapidly. I think regulatory also helps as well.

Um, probably we are more prone to it here in Europe, um, as we kind of Uh, always looking up to the state to regulate such things, or the European Union if some new act comes into act. third, The example that I made about that office [00:23:00] building that was in Germany, this was a big industrial company that has to really manage costs really tightly.

And what they saw was that in their portfolio of buildings, since there was no use of the building, the energy bill was still so high, given it was the energy crisis and the electricity really, Uh, the electricity prices were sky high. They decided to say, we need to do something about it. There must be something that we can do about it.

And the introduction of software helped them to reduce, uh, the energy bill during that time, um, in terms of KWH consumption as one example, also water and all the other, uh, sources. So for me, it's. It's sustainability is a big issue and that's becoming stronger as well in Europe. It's cost reduction, it's regulatory, and it's some exogene factors.

So, I believe these are four major drivers to kind of really [00:24:00] initiate these kind of changes from outside as well.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about the new Digital Twin platform. I saw a word on the website that really piqued my interest, which was open. And maybe you can start off by talking about an open Digital Twin platform.

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: Yes, I think that goes and ties back a little bit to the NEMATRAC history. NEMATRAC has been always promoting IFC and open standards. Um, that's something that we really believe in. We don't want to create proprietary standards and proprietary formats, but rather have the data really, flow freely between the different applications.

Um, given for some of the buildings, there is already data that is existing in very different formats and from very different vendors around the globe. I'll take BIM as a good example for that. We have created our digital twin platform in such a way that Any [00:25:00] format we try to read in, even if it's not a Nemetschek format explicitly, that is, um, if by design, um, that means that any of our big competitors of Nemetschek, we can read in their format in a proprietary way and thereby then analyze the data for the ideal usage of the digital twin.

That's true also for point clouds, it's true for photogrammetry, they're very different formats. And we have built it up in such a way that it can be read in, so we can, we do not create silos, we create something that is a real open platform.

Evan Troxel: Interesting. So give us an idea of what it actually means to use your platform. So it sounds like it's, it can be authored that the, the model can be authored just about in any way, right? It could, it could start as a BIM and it could go like the building hasn't even built yet, but you could also do photogrammetry.

You could also do a laser scan of an existing building and bring that in. And then what are you doing in the platform and how are we accessing that? Is it a desktop [00:26:00] application? Is it through a web browser, et cetera? Give it, give us an idea.

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: So, what you do is usually for existing buildings, in this case, because that's really most of our cases that we are currently finding, is to really fully digitize that building. And that means that we take point clouds with some of our partners, we do photogrammetry, we take photos with drones, and we combine it with everything that we can find that already exists digitally.

That means any BIM model or CAD model. And what we are able to do is to overlay all that information. Um, so what we, we have eaten or drank our own champagne, um, and we have actually, as I said already before, done the same for the Nemetschek headquarter, and we had different formats and different, uh, authoring tools, CAD and BIM that had been used in the past.

And we combined all that information with the point clouds and the photogrammetry and photogrammetry to come to a real complete [00:27:00] view of. what the building currently actually is. We then connect to the BMS system here. We installed, because nowadays sensors are relatively cheap, indoor sensors everywhere in the building as well, to measure occupancy, temperature, CO2 levels.

Even, you may laugh now, Virus Intensity, that's also measurable nowadays. Radon, and all of that is very applicable, not only to us, but also to hospitals as a good example for that, or for airports when it comes down to really measure a temperature rise in some corner of the airport where you don't see the fire, but it's kind of there, and you need to control it.

So, these are very Active examples of what we see, how a digital twin can be used, and how really to implement it in trouble.

Evan Troxel: So I imagine the authoring process, though, of kind of, um, filtering through many different layers and different types of information to [00:28:00] really get it down to something that is lightweight and useful is still a process that, that takes People have to go through, right? And, and then you're, you're not just connecting to a BMS.

You're also placing some representative node of what those sensors are, where they're located, right? In the model. So there's, there's still, can you give it an idea of And I know it would be different for every project, but just like, what is the process you go through once you capture the building that you then go through to get to a usable digital twin for various outcomes?

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: Yeah, um, good point. So what we do then is really to locate all the sensors and, um, really connect them with the right asset, the right room, and everything that is already in that digital representation of the asset itself. Once that is done, we connect all these points then, um, in such a way that It connects to our BI engine that [00:29:00] is in our digital twin.

We also extract from the authoring tools every bit of information that we can get, be it all the attributes, for example, from a BIM model. Whatever we can find, we try to really extract. And then we combine it to reports for the clients. It depends on what the client wants. It's very easy to do that, but in the end, there's some, let's say, logic that you need to apply to combine, for example, the occupancy sensor with all the rooms and then say, okay, please come up with an occupancy report that shows me on average per day occupancy for the specific floor, for example, if you want to do it by floor in order to make a decision how many floors you want to heat up.

Yeah. That's maybe a good example for that. So you connect the dots of the different data silos in the platform, and then you need to create the report out of it. Whether it's for cost reduction or whether it's for sustainability, as I mentioned [00:30:00] already before, it doesn't matter. In the end, that's the groundwork that you need to do.

Evan Troxel: It is interesting to think about this as like, uh, there's multiple interfaces, right? There's, there's the actual model, but then there's the, the BI, the business intelligence, the reports, the dashboard side of it, right? Which doesn't take a BIM operator. That basically democratizes the output, so that anybody can actually make a decision from it, or at least gain some insights from that.

And if it's a real time Dashboard, right? It's a living document, and it's something that people can actually follow and track trends over time, and that's where insights actually come from, right? It's by using this all the time, and it also kind of changes The decision making function early on in the process to say who is going to use this because it's not like once you get the model, once you plug in all the [00:31:00] sensors and you plug in the data for the different spaces and what they're used for and what are their hours and, you know, is it a meeting room versus a restroom versus a storage room versus a, like, there's so many different Typologies of space inside of these buildings, but it democratizes who can make decisions because it makes it available to so many more people, right?

Once that data is, is it exists or the collection can happen and the reporting. So is there a whole framework on the business intelligence side of things to make it easy to start getting insights quickly, once all of that data is put into the digital twin?

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: Absolutely, yes. That's what we are trying to achieve, to make the UX, the UI really simple to use from a user perspective. Um, you already asked before and I didn't give you an answer, I just realized. This is a SaaS product, so it's going through the web browser. So it's very, very easy to invite a new user and give [00:32:00] that person access to the data, so that he or she can really come to its own conclusions, take its own decisions, whatever is needed.

So he goes to the, she goes to the BI engine and then starts with what is the kind of data that I would like really to see for which kind of building. So he can do a building deep dive and then combine the different data sets that I have at my hands to come to one comprehensive report that I need in order to take my decision in a proper way.

Evan Troxel: So, so talk a little bit more about what people are experiencing, like the kinds of benefits that they're experiencing by doing this, because if it's a SaaS model, it has to provide continual value. It has to provide value over time. And so just give some examples potentially of, of what, what you're hearing from your customers.

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: So it's really real time monitoring is one of the major values that is realized and that by that real time monitoring the whole time they're actually capable of [00:33:00] then achieving as I said before already cost reduction through energy reduction but also Uh, come up with some new reports that allow them to make decisions around refurbishments or maintain, maintenance.

Uh, I'll make one of my favorite examples, um, if you've got a big facility or actually a set of facility, a portfolio of facilities in one place, you may want to take the decision, to replace your air cons that you have on site. But for that purpose, you would need to know how many air cons you have, what model you have, what is the energy consumption of that air con eventually.

So, if you buy a new one, what's the break even then? So, you need to compel all the information from the existing ones that you already have in your digital twin, and then extract that information and compare it with a potential new one, that actually has maybe an energy consumption that is half of it and half the price [00:34:00] therefore.

So then you need to also add the capex cost and the installation cost of it. And that's your beautiful business case. So that's something, but there, there are also very simplistic cases. It may be even just to check the fire extinguishers as simple as that. So it's a point cloud and we have written, written a routine to really.

identify all the fire extinguishers because a lot of companies do not know where are my fire extinguishers, how many do I have? It's very simple cases as well that we are trying to solve for our customers.

Evan Troxel: That's a really great example. I mean, because it's not like the fire extinguisher has a sensor on it, or maybe, maybe I'm wrong, but right, but, but knowing where they are, what model it is, when they need to be checked, when they need to be serviced or replaced. And it's things like that that enable. An effective ma because what, what would be worse than having a fire extinguisher that is broken or does, it does it's expired, [00:35:00] for example, right?

When something wrong actually goes wrong. I mean, that, that to me, if you can have a dashboard that basically lays out a thing for your facilities, maintenance and operations team to be doing all the time, that seems to make a, a great use case right there for something like this.

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: It's even very basic processes like the identification of these fire extinguishers as they don't know where some type of, most of the cases actually where they are. That also applies for all sorts of things like sprinklers or so many little components in the building. um, that make a difference, but they need to be controlled, they need to be checked, the battery needs to be replaced, and instead of doing that continuously, you can really measure it.

They sometimes have an IP address in the meantime, uh, so you can really fully integrate them into the digital twin, um, there as well. And, uh, AI, that's incredible, the [00:36:00] advances that we see there, allows us to identify, um, easily, in the point clouds, many of these aspects. So if the point cloud has a certain quality, we are able to identify The fire extinguishers or the sprinklers or whatever it is.

At least then we have the location and then we, somebody can be sent to really take on the very little nitty gritty attributes of that fire extinguisher if we don't have it. Because for most of the existing building that information does not exist. Here we can help with a concrete use case that is very pragmatic.

Evan Troxel: And it actually lays out a plan for you to follow to be able to get the most value out of something like this, right?

I think that's what's actually interesting about it is like somebody doesn't have to figure that out. like you're saying, AI can do that. So what I'm assuming what you're saying there when you, when you talk about AI, it's like, if you have a photogrammetry model or a laser scan and accompanied with 360 degree photographs, right? You can, you can do like a [00:37:00] computer vision analysis of that. And it can say that is a fire extinguisher with 98%, you know, positively like that. That's what that is. That's a light fixture. That's a fire extinguisher. Now we know where they are, and then you can actually have. A to do list to send your building maintenance out to identify and catalog, or just apply those attributes to those points in the model so that you have a full, uh, you know, exactly what's in your model.

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: Yes,

Evan Troxel: then

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: I couldn't describe it better. We are going to the extreme that we are working not only on this concrete little pragmatic use cases, but to have a full, what we call, scan to BIM automated. That means, if you have a point cloud and photogrammetry of the building, Our AI engine is not perfect yet. We are at a level of, let's say, 95, 96%.

It's not perfect yet, but we are getting there. And as a matter of [00:38:00] time, we will release something that will allow our customers then to create an automated asset register of its buildings. That is a great value, and it will exactly know, okay, that's where maybe that, I don't know, table, um, chair, and everything is located, and it's located in a certain room, and it's lo So you've got all the information, and you've written it at the moment.

Collecting all of that is a manual, typical manual, tedious work. that can be automated and it becomes an object, a database object, and not just some points in the cloud or just some pixels in a photo. That makes it really valuable information.

Evan Troxel: that would need to be updated from time to time because furniture moves around, for example, right?

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: There are some goods that, and assets that will be moved around with certainty, so it depends on the accuracy of the use case needed, uh, how often you want to digitize than you're building [00:39:00] inside. Um, probably not that often, but a lot of the assets are actually quite fixed. within a typical room, be it the heating, be it the lightning, uh, lighting, be it the switches, be it sockets, be it whatever it is, all of that is quite fixed.

And identifying these structures is extremely valuable depending on the use case. Think about a hospital, for example. In a hospital, having that information, if you've got an old hospital somewhere, having that information is extremely valuable. Or for an airport, this is exactly the same.

Evan Troxel: Right. It, it seems too that what else is valuable is what is in the walls, what is above the ceiling. Is there, has there been any advancements in capturing that kind of information that, I mean, obviously it's, it's tedious, it's probably going to remain tedious, but has the technology gotten better to capture that, maybe not in a wall, but above a suspended ceiling, for example, of what's going on up there with piping and ductwork [00:40:00] and locations of things. Any advancement there?

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: Yes, um, actually, um, so we're playing around with LIDAR technology, um, to look at least a little bit behind the walls, as good as we can. Um, again, it's not yet there, as perfect as we want it to be, maybe in that sense we're a bit too German, um, but, That's something I believe requires accuracy, uh, so when we really look behind the walls.

Um, so, I think two examples we just used make so much sense and they will create so much value, because looking behind the walls is something at the moment that is extremely tedious, as you need to really I don't know, scratch off the wall or go to the ceiling and remove some of the blinders, whatever it is, that's the surface there.

That's tough. So LiDAR may be a technology that can help us here. So we are seeing some advances there and we're working together with some startups. [00:41:00] But I mean, the basics already would be great. Scan to BIM already would be a great move ahead. I mean, looking behind the walls and ceilings, that would be just the next step already, but Already the first one needs to be made.

Evan Troxel: So, so you, your, your company, you obviously understand the value of, uh, the, the BIM asset, right? And, and when you go from scan to BIM, depending on the age of the building, I mean, you could get very different. Output from that process, if the building is 200 years old, which, you know, in Germany has probably not, I'm sure there are many examples exist versus something that is, is much more newly constructed as far as like, Parallel walls and level floors and level ceilings.

And I mean, so, so doing the scan to BIM process, there is a level of accuracy that is useful, but then there's also a level of accuracy that is, as an architect, when it comes [00:42:00] to being able to do things with that BIM model, it is impossible if it is too accurate sometimes, right? Like it, it just. If the floors are, are not level.

Okay. On some, in some way, that's actually not useful to me as an architect, I need the floor to be level so that I can do things to it. In the software, how, how does that balance get achieved in that scan to BIM process? From, from Emtex point of view, like, like how are you giving people the con, the control that they want to get out of that rather than making that decision for them? Because I've again been through the process where. I got a BIM model from a scan and it was too accurate. The wall was slightly off. Okay, well that's not useful to me because maybe we just didn't have that conversation up front. Are you guys having those conversations? How is that being affected? How is that affecting the outcome of the scan to BIM process?

Okay,

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: is exact, is one case [00:43:00] where it's needed in a very high, well, relatively high accuracy level, given that there is a maintain, maintenance process going on or refurbishment, whatever it is. Most of the use cases are more oriented towards operate. and managing a building, but coming back to your point, I think it really depends on the type of building you're in.

For some of the buildings, the accuracy that is needed is that high. I'm talking, I make now an extreme example of a semiconductor building, or a plant, I should say. Accuracy, accuracy there is like everything. It's like you need to be super precise about everything. Whilst if I'm looking at an office building, well, that's not really needed.

It depends on the use case is the answer. So we need to ask our clients, what do you really want? And the same is true also for the point clouds that we advise our customers then to take. What is the level of accuracy that you need? So is it like, I don't [00:44:00] know, a point like two millimeters or is it two centimeters?

What is it that you really need for your specific use case?

Evan Troxel: Yeah, the tolerance is a big issue, right? Because the LiDAR can do something that photogrammetry can't, for example. Uh, and when we draw something from scratch in BIM, we're drawing everything parallel and flat, right? And that's what CAD does. has been designed to do. That's what BIM has been designed to do. And then when it actually gets built, it's something else, entirely, usually, right? And, and so, it goes through, then you have to kind of go through that as built process, and you have to do the comparative analysis of a LiDAR scan to what was built, and then you have to reconcile that in the model. But, again, just like telling the whole story about Digital Twin, this is all part of that.

Like, this is all part of There's so many layers to this onion, and, and it is, it's not easy to, for, for an owner, I think, to actually understand the true [00:45:00] cost, but also the true value proposition that it, that it gives us.

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: What you just described perfectly matches also, uh, with our view. So, this whole design through construct process, and then you need to compare, especially when it comes later on to issue management and to hand over, what has been built, and then there are deviations. I've never seen a building where the deviation

is not there.

It doesn't exist, in reality.

And it also changes over time, um, not only physically only, but also in, in the building itself. There's all sorts of changes, sometimes smaller, sometimes big, sometimes bigger ones. And that has an impact, um, on building, um, overall. So, it, it, it, we need to really educate our customers and potential customers on that.

And we see some of them. Realizing the value very early on. Universities are [00:46:00] actually a prime example of that. Um, they actually realize that they have usually kind of old buildings, or a good set of old buildings, sometimes also new buildings, and they're trying to read to match them and to be able to read to manage them properly, uh, in everything that they do with them.

Uh, here Additional Twin is a massive step ahead.

Evan Troxel: Mm. Mm. I'm wondering if there's anything else on the agenda here today that you want to go over when it comes to digital twins that we haven't covered in this conversation so far. Have we missed anything?

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: I believe if there's one thing that I would like to add, it's that it's beyond the owner. What I'm realizing, or what we are realizing more and more, it's that It's an operator, and it's also the architects, and also the engineers, and also the ones who write the certificates, for example, for buildings related to sustainability and everything else, that will realize the value out [00:47:00] of such a digital twin.

So we're seeing big companies and consultancies around the world taking the data, And creating new values out of that, like I was just describing, like certificates is a good example for it. Or continuous reports on the building. Um, so there's a lot of value that will be derived just by once and for all having the data of your building in one place.

And that's, I believe, something that at the moment it doesn't exist and that I think it's underestimated at the moment.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, just, just an owner knowing what they own is a huge value proposition

that I think, especially in large buildings. There's not a complete understanding of, of what is actually there. What are the assets? What are their ages? What are their model numbers? What are their warranties? When are they expected to be replaced? And there's so many layers to that, [00:48:00] that I, I think there is a lot of value there. But at the same time, You're talking about a very proactive scenario in a very reactive world, right? Which is, we're just going to wait for that. And, and of course, in many examples, like you've cited in airports and hospitals and fire stations, etc.

Like we can't wait for stuff to break. We have to be ahead. We can't have that scenario rise up because it literally is life or death for me, for people. But when it comes to regular buildings, I'll just say it that way, it's a very reactive world. They wait for the roof to fail. They wait for the air conditioning unit to stop working in the classroom over the, you know, in the school. And that behavior change is very difficult. Um, I'm, I'm rooting for you to help figure that out because I, I do think that not only is there value along the whole path of operations for. new businesses to exist and to extend [00:49:00] relationships. For example, with architects, right? Often like once the building is open and it's occupied, architects are onto the next project. They are not continuing to stay involved. They may do a after occupancy kind of survey to kind of see if it's working out. But, but that relationship really doesn't continue along with that. Owner group or that building because they built it, right? And now we're going to move on to another one, but this does provide an opportunity to stay involved in the satisfaction of using that building the way that it was designed in the operations of that building moving forward. And there are new value propositions, new ways of doing business, I think, that are afforded in, in, with technology like this and with this new way of thinking. So, in that way, I'm very much rooting for you because I feel like architects, if, if people don't understand the value of architects, it's not going to get any better by stopping the relationship when the building [00:50:00] becomes occupied, right?

It actually needs to continue beyond that. And I think architects are in a very good position to, to help owners. Get the most out of their new facility that they just went through this huge, uh, process with to, to bring into reality. So, I, I'm, I am rooting for you and I, I think that, I think that there is legs here, but I, I think it is, uh, you're, you have a monumental task ahead of you.

And it's not just you. Right. There are many people kind of trying to tackle the digital twin. There's the digital twin consortium. Autodesk is obviously has a big push into this. Nemetschek has a big push into this and several startups with the scan process, the scan to BIM process and making sense of all that data.

So, um, it's very interesting to kind of get this update and see where things have come in the last few years, but also potentially where they're going. Okay.

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: I can only agree to so many things that you just said, and I am seeing as well that big architectural offices around the [00:51:00] globe are extending their offering into the operate and manage phase as well, for exactly the reason that you just stated, because it makes so much sense. Um, there is also the possibility of extending with a digital twin the lifespan of a building or of an infrastructure.

And allow me to make one very nice example where we have a digital twin of the Kühlbrandbrücke in Hamburg. That's the second most used bridge in Germany.

So this bridge, which crosses a sensitive point in Hamburg, was built 50 years ago. The city does not have money to actually build a new one. So they need to extend the lifespan of the existing one. They have no money. connected 500 sensors to that bridge and created a full digital representation for it.

So they completely, [00:52:00] point clouds and photogrammetry, they created a full BIM model, combined all the sensors and they are measuring live the bridge in order to make sure that they don't miss anything so that the lifespan can be extended, um, given it will take another 10 to 12 years until the new bridge or the new tunnel will be built.

So that's quite a very interesting example where it's not about sustainability or consumption or anything else. It's extending the lifespan of an asset or an infrastructure in that case.

Evan Troxel: It kind of is about sustainability,

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: Yeah, true.

Oh, good point.

Evan Troxel: because if you're keeping an asset longer, I mean, that, that is a, that's a worthy goal. What kinds of things are they measuring when it comes to that? Is it, is it stress on the members? Is it cracking? Like what kinds of things are they actually measuring?

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: All and more. It's temperature, humidity, some sensors are inside the concrete and measuring [00:53:00] constantly the cracks and there's also some, I think some noise of sensors if I'm not mistaken. So it's really all sorts of sensors

to really come to a full and comprehensive view of the bridge.

Evan Troxel: Interesting. Wow. Fascinating. Well, thank you for sharing all that and I appreciate you coming on the podcast to share about the latest in Digital Twins and this new open platform that you've created. Maybe you can, we can just finish up here and you can let people know where they can go to learn more about this and then we'll include links to all of those places in the show notes.

But where, where's the best place to send people if they want to learn more about what

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: Well, um, there is two, uh, places where they can go to. Either they go to Nemetschek. com, where they already will find a lot of information. And the other, uh, address to go to is Nemetschek DTWIN. com. That's where they will find the specific, um, information related to DTWIN. [00:54:00] That's the name of our platform.

Evan Troxel: Nemetschek, D TWIN, and that's one word, no spaces,

just D T W I N.

Cesar Flores-Rodriguez: Yeah, well, the URL to create is nemetshek dtwin and no space, no dash, no point in between.

Evan Troxel: Okay, great. I will put both of those links in the show notes for this episode. Cesar, thank you so much. it was a great conversation