159: ‘Project Phoenix, Part 1: Design’, with David Benjamin and Ryan McNulty

159: ‘Project Phoenix, Part 1: Design’, with David Benjamin and Ryan McNulty

[00:00:00] Welcome to the TRXL podcast. I'm Evan Troxel. In this episode, I'm talking with Ryan McNulty and David Benjamin. Ryan is an architect and is a principal in charge at M B H architects. has experience in several project typologies from workspace and labs to multifamily and hospitality projects.

David Benjamin, also an architect, leads applied research on net zero buildings at Autodesk Research. His work combines research and practice with a focus on an expanded and actionable framework of environmental sustainability. Over the past several years, his team has explored generative design, low carbon materials and reusable design intelligence for the built environment. may have seen him on the main stage a few years ago at Autodesk University talking about generative design like I did. Today, we're talking about the design of project Phoenix in the first of a three part series of episodes on the [00:01:00] podcast. discussion today focuses on the integration of architecture and technology in creating a 300 unit affordable housing development in California's bay area. Phoenix involves a unique collaboration between MBH architects, FactoryOS and Autodesk, and how they heavily leveraged generative design and real time analytics software tools early on in the design phase. Our also highlights the efficiencies gained through modular construction, the challenges of incorporating new technology and potential implications for the AEC industry. On a higher level, this episode highlights the commitment of all parties involved to improve housing solutions and the design process with a very hands-on approach. As always, before we jump into today's conversation, I needed you to do me a couple of favors. If you're a regular listener and are enjoying these episodes, please subscribe to the show to let me know that you're a fan. And if you're watching on YouTube, please also click that like button. [00:02:00] It really, really helps. And if you'd like to get an email, when episodes are published with all of the links and other information about the episode, you can sign up for that at trxl.co. This was conversation with Ryan and David. And I hope you'll not only find value in it yourself, but that you'll help add value to the profession by sharing it with your network. And now without further ado, I bring you my conversation with Ryan McNulty and David Benjamin for part one of the project Phoenix series.​

Evan Troxel: Today I'm joined by Ryan McNulty and David Benjamin. Welcome to the podcast.

Great to have you

both.

David Benjamin: Great

Ryan McNulty: to be here. Thanks, Evan.

Evan Troxel: today we're talking about Project Phoenix and I

really want to focus on the design side of that. And so Ryan, you were an architect on the project, David, also an architect and working at Autodesk Research. And this. Kind of, I don't know, [00:03:00] collaboration, union, uh, team, you joined, forces here together between technology and the practice of architecture.

And I'm curious to hear the story behind that. And just to give a little bit of background, a module from Project Phoenix was on display at Autodesk University on the show floor, and I naturally gravitated toward that as an architect myself and got to hear the story because I went there as part of the press, which was great, because we got to see the various aspects that make this project unique as far as.

The technology that went into it, but also in the fabrication and even like the panelized system that ended up on the outside of these modules. And obviously there's like, an industrialized construction aspect to this project as well. So this one ticks a lot of boxes, uh, for topics that have, you know, been on this podcast before.

And, uh, so I'm excited to have this conversation and, and chat with people who were there since the very beginning of it, even in the planning stages. Right. So, who wants to kick this off and kind of give an overview of, of where this all

began.

David Benjamin: Yeah. It's [00:04:00] interesting. I mean, Ryan, maybe you can talk about some of the ways that you got involved with

working with With Factory OS and this kind of system, because I guess that would also be the way that I would

describe how we all came together on this

demonstration project.

Ryan McNulty: It's, uh, it's, it's, I would describe it as very non traditional, um, which is kind of fun, you know, you know, as architects, we're always looking for new solutions and this is one of those projects that has presented itself as a, as a totally new delivery type. Um, and I guess, you know, that might be a sweeping generalization, uh, but, uh, you know, we're here on a podcast, not, not actually working on the project, so we can do those, but, um.

Yeah. So, yeah, thank you, David. I'll, I'll take that prompt and I'll turn it back to you. Um, MBH, uh, started, um, we have been working, uh, in the Bay Area, uh, we're coming on year 35. So we, we were founded in 1989. And so we've been practicing [00:05:00] in the Bay Area for a very long time. There is a deep well of contacts and relationships.

Uh, one of those relationships is with, uh, one of the founders of Factory OS, uh, Larry Pace, and, uh, our other Uh, founder, John McNulty, who, uh, I, I have the distinct, uh, responsibility of looking exactly alike, but I can't help, can't help genetics. So, uh, you know, as we wade our way through, um, sometimes projects are formed purely from relationships.

And so when Larry and John were talking about some of the challenges that Factor OS was facing in ways that they were thinking about bringing construction under a roof, They needed some help in planning and figuring out how to really make their, uh, building process more efficient. And so, and we stepped to partner with, uh, Factor OS and, and help them really push through the module, right?

A lot of, how can they develop more effective volumetric, uh, uh, modular components, to [00:06:00] make sure that they actually, you know, they, they have an assembly line. And I, I mean that with no pejorative. That's, that is the goal of a modular, uh, module. assembly is that you are able to save a lot of time because you're repeating a lot of the construction.

Um, and as it was a new, um, new enterprise and some new projects coming online and they had learned a lot of lessons from previous projects, there wasn't that sort of network solution to understand like what they had done on previous projects to then make their process better. And so we partnered with them to help them really push forward how they were going through and permitting their modules.

Working with the state, making this much more effective in terms of, excuse me, of how they could actually get this process going. Um, and then from there, Larry, uh, had connected with many members of Autodesk, right? Autodesk, uh, a trusted partner for a lot of architects, uh, in, in terms of software and a lot of their projects that they are pushing along on the side.

Um, for their, [00:07:00] for their project delivery, they were able to step in with a, with a lot of, uh, horsepower. And that was where this partnership was started of, okay, you have some, you have some projects that are coming down the pipeline. Are there any here that we could look at in a different way? And I think that's where the Autodesk partnership came in.

And I think that might be a good transition to David.

David Benjamin: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks, Ryan. And, um, I mean, it's interesting because I really like what you're describing about how for, for this project and for your partnership, you know, MBH architects with Factory OS. You were like thinking about and designing systems. It's not just single buildings, um, and, and, that's a natural connection to some of the things, you know, that I think Autodesk thinks about.

So for, from my perspective, coming from Autodesk research, you know, of course, um, Autodesk wants to make software and address kind of [00:08:00] systems in that way. But, um, within Autodesk research, we're also interested in trying to. Explore new possible futures for the industry and really to, you know, honing in a little bit to move the needle on some of these really difficult challenges like the housing crisis and the climate crisis.

And so we became very interested in, in working with Factory OS and you, Ryan and MBH Architects on this demonstration project, Phoenix. Um, to see what are, what are things we can experiment with here. There could have a kind of lever effect, um, to help things, uh, improve in, in the industry as a whole. And so that's how it, it kind of connected like in the big picture to the stuff we're doing in, in Autodesk Research. But then there were so many also small points where we got excited together about like, Oh, could we try this [00:09:00] together? Or, Oh, what's, what's the, you know, the details of the challenge over here. And I think it just created, like you've already said, Ryan, this great, um, this great context to try to explore new ways to do things to, I mean, not totally out of the blue, because it's taking some things that each of us alone had been looking at, you know, doing and moving the needle. But, you know, together on this demonstration project, it gave us the great opportunity to go a little bit further.

Ryan McNulty: And I really like, as we went through this process, you know, a lot of times there are silos, right, for the groups. Right. You know, we have our, our contractor and then we have the architect and the design team and then any of the other vendors or suppliers. And as Autodesk really stepped in, you know, leveraging their, you know, their ability and their just pure power behind them, uh, it really broke down some of those barriers.

And it was really interesting to see how like, [00:10:00] okay, if we're all sitting in a room together. David used the analogy of levers, you know, we thought of it more as dials, but like the ability to actually like see like what those decisions could do in real time, uh, was actually really eye opening for our team because a lot of times it's, we have that discussion and it's like, all right, we'll reconvene in two weeks and see if that was the right decision.

And then all of a sudden some of the, you know, the Autodesk team was like, okay, hold on. We'll be right back in 20 minutes. And it's like, whoa, that was incredibly fast. And I'm sure it was even faster, but that's what they were showing us

at the time. So it

Evan Troxel: and that takes, that takes an adjustment period too. It's like, because you're used to working at a certain pace and I, this, this goes for the contractor side too. Right. And, and so I'm sure there's another paradigm shift, another layer of it when you're talking about building in a factory on an assembly line. And being able to incorporate these feedback loops

in almost real time to make changes and see the outcomes so quickly that, what was that like to, to adjust to, because that is something that I've seen time and time again, that [00:11:00] our profession, architecture specifically, it just is not

built for, to respond that quickly.

And that takes an, it takes a lot of adjustment. in the firms themselves to, to just realize that there are new ways of working if they're willing to adopt those. And, and for a lot of firms just choose not to, right? Because it's like, it's just too much. It's too,

I don't know what, what, it's

just overwhelming

at some

Ryan McNulty: Yeah. And I think the way we thought about it, I think it took some trust and some time together to really make that jump. Uh, but, you know, Autodesk, you know, demonstrated, you know, their dedication to this project. Factor OS was dedicating their, their, uh, their commitment. And, you know, as the architect and the design team coming through, you know, exactly what David was talking about.

How can we try and solve this housing crisis? How can we build more units and more homes? It really became a win win. You know, the people that are in MDH working on these, on this project. Uh, [00:12:00] every time I've just. I'm just amazed at their dedication to, like, the mission of, of creating more housing in the Bay Area, you know, like we all live here and we see it every day and you can see sort of the ebbs and flows of the issue coming through your commute, your, you know, walking out to lunch, um, and so it's one of those things where it's, it's, you can see this being a really positive impact and it really pushes you forward to, you know, Sort of break those chains of, uh, of conformance of, of the way you've always done things.

Right. So it's just like, this is the way we've always done it, but it's clearly not working. So this is a new opportunity. Let's, let's take it and try and do better. Yeah.

David Benjamin: add,

um, you know, one of the things that was also, um, I think unusual is that each. Each group in, in the, in the picture. And we had like the kind of three primary groups. We had U Ryan and MBH, we had Factory OS, [00:13:00] we had Autodesk, but we also had, like you said, some fabricators, you know, working on, you know, some novel materials and stuff like that. Um, and, and the developer, you know, which was kind of grouped with Factory OS, but really also a separate player, um, almost every single player, maybe a little different than a traditional project was looking for. ways to do something differently on the future projects to learn something in this project that could be applicable to other projects.

And, you know, having worked on other projects before that, that's not always the case. Like a lot of problem solving is really local to that single context, that single building. But in this case, for different reasons, we were all really interested in, in, uh, Um, taking what we did and learn from this project from Phoenix and applying it in the future.

And I was really inspired by that, you know, especially I [00:14:00] guess from you, Ryan, because You know, that's, that's hard to do as a, as an architecture firm. You could see how, you know, there's incentive to do it as an architecture firm, but, you know, for the factory, of course they want to improve it cause they're a factory, you know, but the, the kind of ethos of architecture is often like you bring your unique intelligence and creativity to each project individually.

And there's almost like a, an idea like we're going to start from scratch and that's part of our value.

But I think you were more forward looking and saw like, Hey, there are things we could do back to the systems thing that things to do and explore and push forward here that could be relevant to, you know, to future projects.

And I really like that way of thinking about things.

Ryan McNulty: And it was, thank you, David. And you know, the partnership, I think was beneficial for. All of the teams and, you know, hopefully for the project and the end residents, right? I think that's everyone's goal. Um, but definitely it [00:15:00] was one of those things. I, you know, Dave and I, we have had this anecdote. I mentioned the first time we had this meeting, you know, sitting at the table and Autodesk explaining what their goals were and how we were going to try and push this project forward.

And I had like a little devil on my shoulder like, Uh oh, here comes, Fox is in the hen house, they're going to take all your data, they're going to figure out how to, you know, create this software where we're not going to need architects anymore. Uh, and then on the other side of me, I had the little angel like, well, or we could look at this as like an incredibly powerful tool that's going to allow you to do a lot more, uh, you know, get a lot more work, do a lot more architecture and have a much bigger impact with the projects you do.

Um, and as an optimist, I was like, let's, let's look on that. Let's lean that way. Uh, because really the goals of what we're all talking about, um, are going to be really incredible and really powerful, uh, affect a lot of people in a really positive way and have a really incredible impact on our firm. Uh, we, I've [00:16:00] already noticed people collaborating in a much more interesting way that is a lot more, um, forward looking, uh, but also has a lot more knowledge behind it.

You know? We talk about time and, you know, as, as we go through this conversation, I think I'll probably start talking about time a lot, but the ability to have more time to be an architect is really what I saw through this whole process. And, you know, it's, it's been really impactful. I think for our team, everyone feels really invigorated by it.

Evan Troxel: I think generally, architects are seen as and think of themselves as optimistic most of the time, right? They're very curious about projects, looking for the next thing, always up for a challenge. But that's not to say that there aren't the cynics in the field too, because it's a, it's a difficult profession, right?

And, and architects get burned a lot of different ways. And going back to how you, you were talking about earlier about building trust with Autodesk, Through this process, it is a low trust environment and it's been created [00:17:00] that way over a long period of time, right? We, we hand stuff off for a reason and we're risk averse in many ways when depending on the contract type, right?

Depending on the, the, if it's design build versus IDP versus design bid build, like those are very different levels of trust in those relationships. And, and I think what's interesting is, is that. As I understand the story is that Autodesk actually is an investor, which puts skin in the game into this project in particular. And so to get back to what you were saying, Ryan, about just seeing the, the level of commitment here, is that kind of what it takes, right? It's like skin in the game to see actual outcomes on a certain timeline for a, for a, a purpose that has been kind of written down on paper that everybody agrees to.

Like, what are the goals? of this project. Maybe, David, can you speak to that side of it? Because I want, and I [00:18:00] also, Ryan, want you to tell the story of what Project Phoenix is, to just kind of set the stage. But David, before, before we get there, Ryan, David, could you just kind of explain what, what that level of commitment actually

is

on this project?

David Benjamin: Yeah. Um, I mean, I, I think you're, you're, there are a couple of levels of commitment. I think, Kevin, you're. referring to how Autodesk was an early investor in

Evan Troxel: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Okay.

David Benjamin: investor. And that's one level of kind of commitment to that direction. As you know, as one of many directions of making housing and buildings more efficiently, faster production, less waste, hopefully less carbon emissions, even hopefully safer working conditions, things like that.

So I think there was a great. Synergy already between Autodesk and Factory OS that kind of predated any work on this particular project. Um, but then I think when we started [00:19:00] exploring how there could be this, um, this kind of innovation village project, you know, that's how I think Larry Pace originally described it to us. Um, this, this place where we could explore and do a demonstration project that might. teach us some things where we could go a little further than we might normally go and learn from that and reapply it, um, you know, to the things that each of us is doing. I mean, I think that got us totally bought in, you know, in terms of the ethos and in terms of what we could get out of a project.

And it was like more than just a one off. And I think that was another level of commitment that we made. We said, This is like unique and remarkable as a as a way to work. You maybe can't do this on every project, but to bring together, you know, like minded people, but with different experience and expertise and even incentives, [00:20:00] like you're saying, Evan, to, you know, all have the same goal, not have like conflicting incentives, not have

like Um, you know, suspicion or idea that like, if you win a little, I lose a little, you know, it's not zero sum. It was like, we all, you know, really wanted to to do this together for a variety of reasons. And Brian, I'm glad you brought up like the most important of which was like, to deliver, you know, good quality housing, you know, in this neighborhood for specific people. it was also. These other things for each of us.

And I think that, you know, but just to, just to repeat, we definitely had skin in the game. We were committed to the success of this project and what we could do. And I think once we all saw that about each other, it really unlocks some things like you're saying, right.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. Ryan, I want to, if you could please lay out what Project [00:21:00] Phoenix is and as an architect, then I think maybe talk about what makes this different from a typical one off project like David was talking about, because I know that there's, There's like this idea, uh, that we have to address, not, not an idea, these goals that we have to address, the, the housing shortages, the, the energy usage, the carbon emissions, the embodied carbon, net zero goals, like, there's, there's all of the environmental goals that this project typology points at as a, as a, as a solution, it's not just the solution, right, but there are many potential solutions. This is one of them. And, and so I'm, I'm interested from your perspective as well, after you talk about what this project is and what it's accomplishing, is how interested are you in, and obviously you did pursue this project, but I know a lot of architects are also a little bit allergic to this idea of Creating these things that are just reused over and over and over again. Uh, so, so I would love it if you could just take that as it is and, and run with it.

And however [00:22:00] you're

interpreting that and, and explain

Ryan McNulty: Sure. Yeah. Um, so I'll I'll start more high level project scope. So, um, there is, we have a, a site, uh, over in West Oakland. Uh, it's over next to the 880. Uh, it's a, you know, it's a vacant site right now. Um, and it's one of those sites that is by the highway near a bark track that, uh, I don't want to say, you know, urban development has forgotten, but it's in a, it's in a neighborhood.

Okay. that is right for redevelopment and rethinking of what a neighborhood could be. West Oakland has really changed over the past couple of decades, um, to really address, uh, some of the underserved community that, that calls West Oakland home. And this is an opportunity for our project team to rethink, uh, how we deliver a, uh, an affordable, uh, housing, uh, project to the community.

And so, um, Broad strokes, this is a 300 unit [00:23:00] development. Uh, we're looking to make this a completely volumetric modular project, 100 percent affordable. Uh, and the way we are addressing the site is that we have, uh, a 240 ish unit building. Uh, that is going to back up to the highway. Uh, it serves as the anchor for the site, uh, the backdrop for the new community, but also, you know, serves some ulterior motives of, of, uh, sound control, wind control, and it really helps us, uh, frame the site.

Uh, and then, really where this project gets, from my perspective, incredibly interesting are the smaller buildings that are going to be our test buildings. Um, those are, you know, three story, uh, 12 unit buildings that are going to really move through the site. Uh, and those are where we're really trying to test a lot of these new delivery methods.

Um, and so that brings us up to about 300 units. And what I really enjoyed about [00:24:00] this process is it, it didn't take that typical sort of, uh, planning site approach. Uh, you know, uh, massing approach where the architect goes off to the side, understands what the goals are and does a feasibility study and comes back and says, here are the, here are our recommendations for how we can approach the site based on our analysis, right?

Evan Troxel: three there's always three options.

Ryan McNulty: Oh, there has to be three. The first two are terrible. And the third one is the one we always want. So we got to make sure we, we framed it that way. Uh, but like what was really interesting was that this gets to the levers of the dials. as we were sharing data with, you know, Factor OS, MBH, the entire project team was sharing data with Autodesk and then they were able to leverage their software that was in development to really look at different massing studies, uh, incredibly fast.

I mean, the first time we sat down, uh, and they showed us some of the, the options, they're like, what was it, David? Like we ran 10, you ran 10, 000 different, [00:25:00] you know, massing studies in the matter of a week, something crazy like that. Yeah. And probably quicker. just like exploring a lot of different combinations and permutations. But essentially. Not just randomly,

David Benjamin: but looking at some of the goals

that we all wanted to achieve that we had come up with. So we're trying to use the power of computation to get closer and closer to the best trade offs between all those goals.

Ryan McNulty: Yeah. And that goal setting was really the interesting part of this project

because that was where we're sitting around. It's like, well, what do you need to see? Well, we'd like to see the wind control and the sound control because it's right by highway. Great. And then you could see how that dial would turn and it would start shifting the buildings.

On the site so they would have better exposure. Well, we'd, we'd actually like more access to light for these bedrooms, and then you could see how some of the heights would change and it would slightly, uh, change the, uh, the exposure for the asmu. It was just like, it was incredibly powerful because [00:26:00] a lot of those exercises that we would typically do as an architect, that'll, that would take some time.

And here we are partnered with Autodesk and it's like, oh, what did you wanna see? Great. Hold on one second. And it's like, boom, here it is. We have the power to look at everything that Factor OS has done, understand how they're building it. Here's all your projects that you've worked on with Factor OS, so we can understand your adjacencies of how you typically like to put these buildings together, and we can, as David said, computationally start to understand the ways that we can really maximize these adjacencies, construction, exposures, and really just address this project incredibly quickly.

So it was really, that was eye opening for me. That was the first time where I was like, this project's going to be different.

Evan Troxel: And I was going to ask you to kind of talk about what the, what the typical

process would have been like, and you allude

to it, right? It would take a lot of time, especially, you know, you wouldn't do it to

10, 000 variations, but you would do it [00:27:00] to a few, and it would take time. And I guess the idea here is, is not just that it, it goes so fast, it's that it enables the design team to make decisions. very quickly, which is what you're doing throughout the entire process anyway, right? You're documenting decisions, and you're taking ideas from the client, synthesizing those, the developer, the city has their own rules and regulations that they want you to accomplish on this site. Your team has certain incentives. Autodesk is going to bring certain ones in, but being able to plug those goals into this kind of generative design, um, playground that we're talking about here to really

say, like, these are the boundaries that we need to work within. And David, I'm glad you said trade offs, right? Because that's what it is.

We're balancing this for that and deciding which ones we want to weight a little bit. heavier than others because those are more important, right? They can't all be [00:28:00] equally important. And that happening quickly enables, I mean, Ryan, just like how eye opening was that to you based on traditional methods of

the design

process?

Ryan McNulty: really made our team completely rethink what we're doing on this project. Uh, and it's really, as, as we were talking about this, like the first step was, wow, this is incredible. Uh, and then, you know, our joke of like, are we going to lose our jobs? And then when we realized, no, it's like, there's, you can see how it can be a huge beneficial tool to our projects.

We're like, this is incredible. How are we going to make this project amazing? But also how are we going to learn? from this project to actually roll this out across our practice, across our studio, and, uh, you know, hopefully across the Bay Area. Uh, right now we're working with Factor OS. There's like another thousand units that we have that are either in fabrication or construction, and it's how we can learn all of these lessons because those were started, you know, a year ago, going through the construction [00:29:00] process, planning process, a little bit before Phoenix.

And now we're seeing that next wave of projects start to come to the fore and it now gives us that opportunity to take those lessons that we have been working with David to then understand how can, how can our team apply that and really make this more efficient. And we're, we're seeing some of these projects where we're able to do these masking studies in like a day, which is just silly.

Um, and sometimes they're good and sometimes they're not. But the, the ability to then think about like, okay, so then how does this building sit on the site? How does, how do the people that are actually going to live here, uh, you know, experience the space and how can we make this so much more habitable than trying to, you know, get as many shoeboxes in the air as possible and as many doors and beds as possible.

These are homes. And I think that's really what has been inspiring a lot of our team.

Evan Troxel: You did talk about kind of that, Oh crap [00:30:00] moment when it's like, is it going to take our jobs? And I'm just curious, like, have there been discussions in your company about, because the contract that you have, I assume

is more traditional. It's like, we take this

much time to do this kinds of things.

Ryan McNulty: Mm hmm.

Evan Troxel: And, that's, that is, you, you agreed to that, and now, with this partnership, I mean, maybe it is different, but you tell me, that, things are going much faster, and it's not necessarily like, oh crap, we're gonna, it's gonna take our jobs, but it's like, we, uh, We do need

to rethink the contract and I'm just, it's come up on this podcast before and, and it's one of those things that this is not the kind of thing that really changes in firms where the technology can change the process, but when the process changes significantly, now you have to, you actually do have to rethink resource allocation, utilization.

You have to rethink those things. How big are those conversations

in your firm?

Ryan McNulty: Uh, they're, they're bigger when it [00:31:00] becomes an issue than strategically because we're all still trying to wrap our heads around it, honestly. So we have those conversations. I mean, we're still, you know, our AIA contracts are still somewhat the same, right? I'm sure a lot of people have their,

their little pet peeves of what they would like to negotiate with a developer or what works for their firm, but they're all relatively similar.

And,

Evan Troxel: times those are the client's contracts. They're not even our contracts,

right? If in public work, I found it was always the client's contracts that we were signing and modifying maybe a little bit because maybe they didn't understand like

level 500 BIM was, you know, LOD was, was,

something that we could actually give to them, right?

But they put it

in there because they were told to put it in there by somebody. And so there might be minor modifications to these things, but at the same time, Like they, they aren't changing and the technology is coming in and it is disruptive to the current process and so

now we have this standoff inside of our, in our profession.

I [00:32:00] won't even say in our firms, obviously it's happening in our firms too. You've got people who are super old school,

right? And you've got, you've got new school in the same firm kind of butting heads all the time and it is a tough challenge and I want to address it because like

you're living it

with this

project.

Ryan McNulty: Yeah. Um, and I think on this project, we're really lucky because there is the trust and the partnership there, that everyone has kind of just thrown the contract away as probably a little flippant, but everyone has realized that this is slightly different. And we're all pulling in the same direction, right?

We're at this point, no one's going back and be like, well, your your contract says, you know, X, Y, and Z, um, versus, you know, some of our more institutional developers where for like a very project specific reason, there's. There's discussions on contract language. Um, right now for this project, it has, we've been lucky and who knows, maybe when we get into an issue on site, we won't, [00:33:00] we won't be as lucky.

Uh, and then we'll have to point back to David's team because, you know, the, it was the generative design's fault, you know, yeah, it's their fault.

Yeah.

Evan Troxel: That's what it is.

Ryan McNulty: Yeah. And I, I'm obviously, you know, totally teasing, uh, there, you know, the, just the relationship I think has been helpful here. And, you know, but part of us, you know, like in my firm, especially our, you know, as we're looking through the contract, as this project does start, start to take shape, because, you know, we, we ha it hasn't broken ground yet.

There will be some discussions on contractual responsibility that, I mean, that's inevitable. And so my hope is that the Uh, very, you know, all for one relationship that has gotten us here. We'll, we'll follow through.

David Benjamin: yeah, I just wanted to quickly follow up on, on something you were, you were saying Ryan and Evan, you were picking up on is, um, I think it's, it's everyone's vision that back to like the, [00:34:00] the, technology enabler, you know, the technology for the project, it's everyone's vision that the technology can help augment the human creativity and experience and decision making. And there's always been something that's really powerful to me. Um, even just thinking technically about the, about the technology and the software, which is once you have more than one goal that you want to achieve, there's no way the computer can find a single design option that's best. The best the computer can do, the best that math can do, Find a kind of trade off curve, a set of best designs that depending on your weighing of different values could give you a design that looks more like this or a design that looks more like that. And the design that looks more like this has, you know, maybe more of one or two [00:35:00] characteristics and less of three or four characteristics. And The other design, the reverse. So in a way, I think we found, as we used this project as a specific example, that it was a way, actually, for technology to increase the participation, to bring more stakeholders to the table, to give them more data to base their decisions on, and just more common ground to have a discussion about what's the best direction to go. Um, you know, for a variety of different values. You know, I, I have always thought that one of the really hard things to do on a, on a project like this is do the trade off between carbon or sustainability cost and like livability as a big category of all the things that make good housing, and there's no single rule of thumb for the best way to do that. So exploring the different options and looking at [00:36:00] those trade offs became. became so, I think, relevant and important. And, and again, we shared that goal of using the technology to do, to do that part, but then using the human decision making and the jobs, you know, that you're talking about, Ryan,

like those jobs are totally necessary to make those value decisions.

Ryan McNulty: Yeah. And, uh, it's a great point, David. And, you know, thinking about your, your contract comment, Evan, and in relation to how David was describing this project, as we think of it as like an industry as a whole, I would say a lot of architects, you know, I, our firm at NBH, we've dealt with this a lot of trying to fight that push to architecture being a commodity.

Um, you know, the amount of times we see RFPs where it's like, here's the spreadsheet, please fill in your phase value and. And you're like, okay, well, what else, what else do you want to see from us? A portfolio or a design process? No, we, we would just like sheet,

sheet, uh, C please filled out [00:37:00] with, uh, your compensation.

And you're like, then you don't actually get to understand how we work, uh, what value we can bring on this project. And on the Phoenix, it was really interesting to me because I had that sort of preconceived notion of jumping into software. Where, um, this is going to make it more commoditized because we can.

Turn the dials, see what it spits out and pick one. And then we're done. Um, and what really opened my eyes was when we sat down and as David said, it's almost like a logarithmic direction where it's like, here are the ones that kind of work for what you've told us. Um, now what do you think? And we were all sitting around a table and like, the first eye opening moment for me was everyone just like went around.

They're like, okay, David, what do you think about these six options? What is good? What is not? And then we just went around and talked to every discipline. We talked to the contractor, we talked to the developer, the, you know, I had a chance to talk about it. So did our MEP and our structural engineers. And all of a sudden everyone was [00:38:00] able to impart some, some of their value into the project.

And then we, we all went away and said, okay, let's change the, let's change the dials based on what we just talked about. And then we got to see like how that then shaped the design. And it's again, a different process, but it really made me a lot more comfortable with this change. Because you can see how you can change your skill set, but still use your knowledge base and drive value to the project and your clients and your end users.

And

David Benjamin: know, for the, for the record, um, we did a lot of experimental stuff here and Ryan, we've been talking about some of the things and, you know, maybe if there's time I want to get back to the, that new building typology, because I, I really love the way you described it, that there was that big building, but then there was this new kind of typology for the 12 unit, you know, housing building that, that could be arranged in different [00:39:00] ways and could be a different kind of, uh, You know, uh, manufactured product. Um, but, but what I wanted to mention is that we use this project to explore a lot of stuff, but from, from our side and the technology side, um, we want that to become available to, you know, to you, Ryan, and you already described how you're making this happen already, um, without needing a kind of, you know, special team like. Like the Autodesk research team, you know, the early stuff, we took an existing software platform, you know, we took kind of two platforms. We took Autodesk Forma and Autodesk Revit, and we were kind of working in between them. We were adding some little bit of custom stuff to experiment with, um, some different modules, even of like kind of AI, um, learnings, all of that stuff is for the service of eventually you, Ryan, and your firm. Being able to run that yourselves. [00:40:00] It's not like every project is going to need, you know, this additional layer of, uh, you know, super custom tool crafting. Um, you know, the, the vision, I think for all of us is that, you know, we did a little bit of that to push the, push the bar forward, but eventually that's going to be available and, um, and already some, some of it is, What you're doing now, I think, Ryan, you know, to, to every project.

So, so we're not saying every project moving forward in this model is going to have to have a special team of researchers that's just crafting new algorithms and doing the behind the scene. I'm mentioning that partly because Ryan, it was true. We, we passed data back and forth and we talked about things.

And then sometimes our team would go off and do something. Sometimes your team would go out off and do something, but the goal in the end is that all of that can, can happen. Enhance the capability of Ryan, a great firm like yours, to do it yourself.

Ryan McNulty: we recognize, you know, we're not software developers and understanding that there's new tools being [00:41:00] developed. There were definitely times where everyone had to go back to their corners and really dive into their expertise. But the best part was like, okay, now that we've all spent that time, now we're going to come back to the table together and show what we've done.

And I think that was the really exciting part of this project was, okay, Autodesk has done this, or Factor OS has done this in terms of how we can change how we're going to build it, or we've worked with our MEP engineer to like develop this new way to actually feed our HPAC into this building that's more efficient.

You know, those type of things were really exciting because then it actually, we had a feedback loop. as opposed to waiting to the next project, which is really sometimes an issue. You learn your lesson and it's already built.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, right. How important was it, or how interesting was it to you, Ryan, to have kind of a set unit set up? of what that module was going to be when you were working as kind of the basic building block. Instead of it

being free for all with [00:42:00] massing, what it, you know, sky's the limit. You could do just about anything, too.

Okay, now we actually have this kit of parts that, this building block LEGO set of when you're doing your planning. What was that like for you? Like, how, how useful,

how interesting

was that for, on your side?

Ryan McNulty: Yeah. And that's one of those things that we're. Working with Factor OS to really hone in on what they're doing because it's going to be beneficial to them in the long run as well for the volumetric, uh, manufacturing and, you know, we've seen, you know, through the past couple of years working them with them, that the unit types, the catalog has compressed, it used to be like whatever we want to do for our client to make sure that we can try and build this, uh, you know, get, get these units open or, or get this project in the door.

And I, you know, I don't mean that in a negative way. We all do that, but we can customize it. But when you're a factory, that level of customization has a lot of negative impacts as well. And so over these past couple years, we've really [00:43:00] been trying to bring this catalog together to understand how those units fit together.

What are the most efficient ones to build? Uh, and we can really, and we were able to see how that data was able to be shared with Autodesk. To really make this effective, um, I don't think this would have been successful in a free for all. Um, I think this first step needed to really be started with like a, a very strong, uh, parameter on, on how the units worked.

Um, I mean, I, I can, I see the application going forward, but for us to learn, I, I don't think we would have been as successful, um, with, with the sky's the limit. Uh, not

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

I mean, constraints can often be your friend, right? During design, because those limitations, there are also, there's opportunity in those limitations. But, thank you for answering that, because I think, again, this is another thing that I think a lot of architects are potentially allergic to in some way, which is like, they don't like, the [00:44:00] standardization of things.

Obviously components are standard, but, but as far as like the assembly of those components, there's analogy there because they're, you. Architect, like David, you said earlier, every project is unique and we bring our, our, our special uniqueness to every project and the site's different. The team makeup is different.

There, there are a lot of actual differences on project to project, but to have this main thing. That is the, the, the module of the housing unit stay basically the same, you know, over 300 units, but then you could configure that building differently using kind of this early massing study software to accomplish certain goals. I think it lets you focus on accomplishing those goals, right? Because if you also had to pay attention to all of those units and all those layouts, obviously there would be duplication and efficiency there, but at the same time, like, you're still messing with that, and you're still, you have to allocate time to do that, and so taking that off the table, or maybe doing [00:45:00] pre work with Factory OS to determine what those things were going to be. Speeds up the process, which also allows us to become an affordable housing complex. Like affordability also starts on the design side and how much time you're

putting into

the project,

right? Upfront.

Ryan McNulty: And I, you know, I, think I, I don't want to be flippant with this comment, Evan, but at a certain, you know, I totally agree with you, you know, as architects, we're always looking for new and better solutions for how we're going to address a project. But I think if we all are honest with ourselves and look at our projects, like especially on multifamily.

We have our standard units anyway. I mean like we're, we're going to design a building and we know how we're going to put a two bedroom in or a one bedroom or a, or a studio. We have that sort of a kit of parts, you know, even if it's an internal, uh, firm version, it's like, here's the MBH version. Here's, you know, firm X, Y, and Z.

They know how they're going to do it. But being able to use the standardized module [00:46:00] for the units, allowed us to do that much faster and then spend the time sitting with David and his team sitting with Factor OS trying to really solve different problems. What do we want this building to look like? I mean, I am continually impressed.

You saw the mod in Vegas. That, in my mind, turned out incredible. Like, to actually, like, be able to try and do a new facade system on this, because we had the time to investigate and design it, and partner with Chrysler, and partner with Autodesk, and partner with EcoNative. It was incredible to actually be able to spend that time, whereas normally you wouldn't have that time.

We gotta go run through the planning process and get it done. And it's like, well, now we have to VE it because we're six months behind schedule, so. We gotta go. It's Hardy Borderstucco again, right?

Evan Troxel: Pick it off the

Ryan McNulty: Yeah. And so like, the fact that we have this incredible solution, we hope it works. I don't know. I think David and I are both really optimistic [00:47:00] about it.

But it's something different that could be like a really incredible, uh, solution. That again, could work on a bunch of different projects, which would be pretty incredible.

Evan Troxel: You've talked about the design process kind of loosely, uh, and I'm, I'm just curious, you know, you're, you're working directly with the factory. Obviously there's still an AHJ involved here. What else changed to your typical process of design, documentation, and so forth when you're preparing this for a factory build versus

traditional

build?

Ryan McNulty: What changed? Well, I mean, we have our, our HCD set, right, to get our mods approved. Um, I would think in terms of the AHJ, I think there's a little bit down the road that we're going to find out because we have some planning work ahead of us. But in our discussions, West Oakland is very, [00:48:00] and the city of Oakland is very open to a project like this.

And I think what we're really going to see is the value of what we're able to do here is as we go through the planning and entitlement process, the ability to go back and say, we have tested all of these things. And the reason we think this is a, this fits within the zoning and we, and it fits within the context and will be a value add to the neighborhood is because we have experimented with this type of solar exposure, the sound attenuation, the wind that this site is going to have to deal with.

We can, we can demonstrate to Oakland that we've, we've done that work. And I think that's something that is a, that is, you know, knock on wood, going to be a really nice value add for our team.

Cause a lot of times they're like, well, have you looked at this? And, you know, we always say yes, but now we can actually pull it out and say, here you go.

Yes, we have.

Evan Troxel: Yeah. Speaking to your point earlier, David, about, uh, you [00:49:00] guys being the special ops team that's working with MBH and with Factory OS and that not everybody has access to that. Another Autodesk er, Kian Walmsley, who was recently on my podcast, talked about kind of Autodesk's, one of their big, big goals was always to take something that was 100, 000 and turn it into a 10, 000 more democratized, you know, as a loose number example, democratized technology that a lot more people have access to. It's great to hear that that's one of the goals here and obviously using this case study as a direct, you know, example of a feedback loop in action and creating tools that others have access to. And you just speak to people who probably aren't familiar with the latest offerings from what's coming out with, with Forma and Revit, but maybe you can speak to how some of those things that you've been playing with on this project and others are making their way out to be [00:50:00] distributed to everybody, just so they're aware of what those things are, because, you know, speaking back to Ryan's earlier comments about this actually shifted the way that we work. And I know Autodesk is directly interested in, in being a part of that conversation by making the tools that enable that to happen. Can you talk about

what those

things are?

David Benjamin: Yeah. Well, um, I, I, I definitely can't make any promises about, you know, what features are coming out and what releases of the, of the products. I'm that that's not my role. And I know that always software companies are careful about that anyway. Um, but,

you know, I, I can describe some things kind of in general. You know, Forma, I think Autodesk Forma has been exciting to a lot of people because it allows for quick composition of massings on a site. You're already exactly on the site with all of the coordinates and the surrounding context. Um, and then you can see rapid, [00:51:00] almost real time analysis. So that already exists today.

You can start composing some buildings on a site and you can see the wind or the noise attenuation, the kind of factors that Ryan was describing, the daylight. Um, we were trying to experiment with like kind of building additional modules of intelligence into that system. So one thing we experimented with on this project, which is potentially something that will be more and more in something like Pharma. Is instead of just starting from scratch, um, with how you're going to make the shape of a building to be able to use, like, like we were already discussing, uh, a kit of parts or a catalog of units. And in this case, it was really clear why that was important. You know, we have these modules that FactoryOS can build really efficiently. And then Ryan, you and Factor S worked on optimizing. So that was interesting for me when I was listening to you earlier. They're almost like different levels of design. [00:52:00] The first level of the design was just making sure that the individual, you know, modules or any part of a kit of parts was well designed in itself. And then another level of design of composing with those. So, but one thing that we were experimenting with on this project was instead of, you know, just starting, you know, with the, with the blank slate and building you know, big volumes, you could start by composing with units you already knew you wanted to use. So composing with some of those five or six unit types that we're going to actually have in the project. If, if we know that in advance, then why allow a building to be any old shape and then try to fit those You know, make it out of those modules, instead compose it directly out of those modules at the same time. So that's one type of, um, you know, kind of additional functionality that we're experimenting with. Another was, and like you already mentioned too, Brian, uh, [00:53:00] Ryan, um, was imagining that there's, you know, we know something already. Ryan, you knew something already about which modules. should go in which places and next to which other modules. So could we allow that the software system learns from past examples and then creates new configurations based on the kind of relationships and rules that you've already indicated are the things you like to do. So, you know, maybe that's on the corners, putting a certain type of. of unit, or when you stack the units, having them be similar type, or sometimes a different type, or the, you know, ones where there might be a, a bend in the, in the building, you know, configuring it that way.

So, you know, learning from past experience with some versions of AI to create designs that, that incorporate the kind of things that you like to do, that you have already kind of vetted. [00:54:00] Um, and then one other example is, um, thinking about, uh, additional levels of analysis. So it's, it's really powerful, um, to be able to see daylight, any design you make, see the daylight, any design you, you know, you change the design, see the change in daylight, or in this case, noise was really important for the project.

So you make a design, see the noise impact, change the design slightly, see the change in the impact. Um, there are some factors that are, that are really important for a project. that don't always make it into the data driven workflow. Things like livability. What makes a design more desirable? What makes a unit, yeah, more human?

And what makes a unit more likely to remain occupied for multiple years instead of have a high turnover?

Um, and some of that can seem a little abstract, but we work together to think about ways to [00:55:00] measure some of those things. proximity to the playground would be one. Um, whether your window is facing some green space would be another, a measurement of privacy, even though this is pretty dense housing, do you have a degree of privacy in all of the important rooms, in all of the units in the, in the project? And so that's another thing that we're thinking of incrementally adding and experimenting with adding more and more of these real time analysis layers. Then there were a series of technical things, which I probably won't get into here, but about passing that data from the early design stage to the more detailed design stage and eventually to construction, which we were also pushing a little bit.

So, you know, the, the software already off the shelf, doing some amazing things, and we're looking to push it a little forward in, in small ways for this project.

Evan Troxel: I want to hone in on something you mentioned there about kind of the [00:56:00] logic aspect of adjacencies. Like, so, so Ryan knows that this unit. It's best next to this unit or in this location on the site. And I think a lot of times our approach is in design technology is to hard code that logic in, but Ryan, maybe you can speak to. the magic of architecture happens in the exceptions to those rules, right? And so like the idea of being able to intervene in an algorithmic kind of layout. And so, David, you, you mentioned learn, it learns from previous designs. You didn't say you encode the logic and then,

and then it spits out the answer, right?

Like they, there is nuance to this part of the conversation. And again, bringing up kind of what architects are generally allergic to going back to this idea of, you know, the bespoke. unique solution and, and, but it's true, right? Like there's the, the reason people say that is because they, they, it doesn't always work on the module, right?

And then there's the bend and how do you infill that piece? And what do you do to [00:57:00] customize that so that it works? And this is how, this is the process of design as well. I was wondering if. Ryan, maybe you can kick this part off and just talk about what, what you saw in, in it learning from, or maybe how you guys approached that solution so that it would give you smart output based on some of the things that you already knew, but then also like how you could intervene in that

process to make it what it

needed to be in the end.

Ryan McNulty: Yeah, um, well, the long and short answer is we're still learning that, Evan, right, as this project takes shape. But I think what we've seen, you know, it's very process oriented here, uh, as we understand, like, how we start designing and what impacts we see. A lot of it comes down to, you know, like, the utility behind it all, right?

Because a lot of these units, you're building them, but then you have to connect them together and make a building. And what we've seen in a lot of, you know, The way the data is being processed is it's identifying some of those busts faster [00:58:00] for us. Like we, we, we like, we see that these units typically go together and it's like, okay, but you know, the two way unit is now next to the one unit.

So your shaft is actually on the different side of the module. So what are you going to do here? Uh, instead of that being an RFI in the field and like now having to figure out how we're going to do it or slowing down the line as they're thinking like, Oh, actually that should be a 1A, you know, like that has actually been a really good cost saving, more just quality control in a way of making sure that those type of issues are able to be addressed sooner.

And because those, those are the type of things that don't really fall on clash detection, right? Where it's like, Oh, our, our sprinkler, our sprinkler main is running through a joist. Okay. That's kind of obvious, but like the connection between modules becomes a little bit more of a, of something that you have to understand where, where you're going to find them.

And the AI has been able to really identify that for, for us. And then we've been able to think about, okay, so if we're combining these units in a different way, how do we [00:59:00] get, you know, our condensate lines to them? Does that allow us something to actually play with fenestration and create a new way for this building to look and appear, but also it has some utility for, uh, for us to serve the buildings in a more effective, uh, way that is, you know, cost effective and easier to build.

So that's been really interesting for us. And I think that's sort of like the first step, because I will say, you know, we're architects first and not software engineers and us sort of wrapping our heads around. The generative design is going to, is taking time. And, you know, I don't want to say like we've adopted this and, you know, we're, we're experts immediately, but I, I can see how the team is becoming a lot more effective in.

understanding how to put these together. And I think one of the things we've really seen in the way a lot of the logic is tracking through the project, David hinted at it. I was thinking of a lot of comments we have, like our technical director who is a huge [01:00:00] advocate of this process and has been involved with the project, Tim.

Um, The amount of times he's come up to us and be like, did you guys start this in SketchUp again? He's like, Oh God, you know, just like that. And I'm not, you know, no negative to SketchUp, just his whole idea of his workflow, starting from the design and leveraging through to Revit and to our instruments of service.

You know, there's a way that can, this can be more effective. And now that we're leveraging Forma on a lot of these projects, we're getting some of the same output, but there's a lot more consistent data that runs through from phase to phase. And right now our technical team is very happy with that because it's a lot more efficient for them.

So like those types of things, we could see that logic starting to come in.

David Benjamin: That's interesting. And, you know, one of the things that we've learned over time is that it's important to have a data driven workflow be interactive. You know, so Evan, you were describing like, you know, what if you want to make an [01:01:00] exception to something that's, you know, being recommended by the system? Um, I think Forma is actually a really good way to do that. So I think combining the best of where, you know, Computation can manage complexity and do a series of calculations and analysis that'd be hard for a human to do quickly, getting the best of that world, but also getting the best of, you know, human intuition and intelligence and saying like, okay, maybe the computer will recommend a certain option, but you can, you know, click on a certain part of it and change it. Like, do that in real time as well, you know, whereas there's, there's a certain paradigm that we were learning from, you know, say 10 years ago, where it was just about the computation part, you would set up a really complex optimization with multiple objectives, and you would run it for several days, [01:02:00] and you would get back, you know, what was a pretty valuable set of data about possibilities and trade offs. But if you wanted to make some change, you would have to tinker with the system a little bit and rerun the whole thing.

Evan Troxel: Yeah, right.

David Benjamin: and we want to have some of the best of crunching some of those numbers that are hard to crunch, but also letting you change in real time and not have to rerun it again. And I think, you know, we're we're working on systems that, uh, that allow you to do that.

And again, like Forma, we keep mentioning it, but that's, that's going to be a good platform for that kind of thing.

Evan Troxel: Well, maybe we'll wrap up here with going back to the expo hall floor at Autodesk University and seeing, getting the opportunity to kind of hear the story. See product samples of kind of the facade and different permutations of what you guys went through throughout that process with your other partners on the, that was really cool [01:03:00] just to see the,

what's, what's the name of their company? Eco

David Benjamin: Ecovim.

Ryan McNulty: and

Evan Troxel: Like, I actually, I actually have my, my piece of paper from the, the, the booth here and, and,

that their logo was covered up. So I apologize, but, um, but it was really neat to, to tour the volume of the module and see it. And, and back what you said, Ryan, like, like just to actually, it was an amazing example and, and it just shows the level of what's being accomplished on the factory room. Line, right? Like the level of detail, the finishes, everything is in there and it shows up on site and then, then you got to put all these, these units together, but it's just an incredible, the level to which these things are being produced and for Autodesk to bring it there, to tell the story. To show that this is actually happening and we're not just talking about it, like we're actually doing it, here it is, and that's really inspiring, I think, to other architects who visit AU and [01:04:00] engineers alike, right, who are seeing it really happen because There's a lot of what if, and we

should be doing this, and we

could be doing that, and then there's case studies like this, where you're actually doing it, and kudos to everyone involved for bringing that to the show floor, and actually showing it off, because, uh, you know, this process, like you said, Ryan, it hasn't actually started construction yet, you still have to go through some phases, but, um, I think it's, it's incredible, the amount of Pre work that's gone in to, it just shows that there's a huge commitment to making this happen and going back to those overall outcomes that everyone is shooting for housing crisis, energy, carbon, resiliency, livability, right?

All of those things I think are, it's, it's really great to see that. synthesized into reality. So

kudos to

everybody.

David Benjamin: I like to say that, um, you know, and it's, it's funny maybe coming from the [01:05:00] technology side, but there's nothing like the friction of making it real to really learn, you know, whether it's a good idea or, you know, to learn about your hypotheses and your attempted innovations. So just by making that module, you know, that you're describing. I think we, we learned a lot. You know, we had, we learned a lot through the whole process so far, but, you know, things about all the way from connection details to transportation logistics, to, you know, how the schedule and the budget on the small scale really worked out compared to how we modeled them to work out. There's, there's nothing like that friction to help you know, really teach us how it's going to work out in reality. So it's great. It's great to hear that it was a, it was helpful for people to see it, but it was very helpful for us to do it.

Evan Troxel: Sure.

David Benjamin: We would [01:06:00] have done it, whether we got to show it to anyone or not.

Evan Troxel: Right. Yeah. It didn't have to show it, but the fact that it was there, I think, uh, yeah, it just, it just makes it even closer to doable for a lot more people when they, when they see it,

the real life

thing. So yeah. Very cool.

Ryan McNulty: know that there is no silver bullet to, you know, address the housing crisis or deliver projects more effectively. But what I was really encouraged by throughout this entire process is just the dedication of every member of the team and every discipline. to just improve, right? We're, we're just trying to improve the, the condition in the Bay Area with the housing crisis.

We're all trying to improve the way we deliver our projects and the way we design, you know, Autodesk is trying to improve their software. Factory OS is trying to improve, uh, their building methodology. So the fact that we're all in it to be better together, I think is really what made this a successful, you know, first effort and what I hope is a successful project, you know, in 14 months.

Evan Troxel: [01:07:00] Very cool. Well, thank you both for taking the time to tell the story and to kind of walk us through what you've been through over the last, I don't know, a couple of years at least. So this has been a fantastic conversation and, uh, I look forward to actually touring the project someday. You know, like you said, in the next 14 months, that would be, that would be amazing.

And, and I would love to, uh,

I would love to see you guys there too. So let's,

let's do our best to make that happen. that

would be super

cool.

Ryan McNulty: Sounds great.

Evan Troxel: All right.

David Benjamin: you, Evan.

Great to talk to you,

Ryan.